No matter what mode you are using, the information on how to access the repeater is typically public information and should be.
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Amateur radio digital voice rant
- Thread starter robertmac
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No matter what mode you are using, the information on how to access the repeater is typically public information and should be.
beischel
Member
Well leaving it up to we the hams has produced this: some using DSTAR, P25, NXDN, Alinco's version whatever it's called, System Fusion, Codec2 and DMR.
You cannot get hams to band together. The P25 crowd wants interoperability with public service as if the police and fire are going to allow that to happen...NOT, but you still have those who push it. Then you have the people who hate DSTAR because for now it is mostly Icom and there are people who love, and people who hate Icom. Then you have the Codec2 crowd that wants everything open. Then you have the DMR crowd that loves Motorola and using surplus DMR on ham bands. With System Fusion you bring in the Yaesu bigots which is not unlike the Icom bigots with DSTAR. I could go on, but hopefully it sinks in that hams cannot agree on anything. What we need are the manufacturers to pick something, one format, and stick with it.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
I dunno, I'm on DMR, and I use neither Motorola, nor surplus DMR radios. I bought mine brand new, in the box... It is not a Motorola either.
Motorola is NOT the only game in town for DMR. There are More than a half dozen subscriber manufacturers. Kenwood, Hytera, Connect Systems Inc, Harris, Simoco, and others, just to name a few.
rapidcharger
Member
Of course, if it wasn't for Motroloa, there wouldn't BE any Hytera or Connect Systems radios. Not sure about Kenwood's overseas radios but I'm not aware of any Kenwood DMR radios for the "K" market. Which model?
N4KVE
Member
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Never said it was specifically for the NA market, but Kenwood is making DMR radios...
FeedForward
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That's exactly what they say at the marketing conferences. Remember when cell phones were making the switch to digital? The hype was that digital would provide extra high quality audio and more reliable communications at lower signal levels. Right. That fantasy was being served up about the time TV commercials all made fun of cell, by using the phrase " Can you hear me now?" Now, instead of a noisy but readable analog signal, a digital call just drops with no warning. Is that better, or just different?
FF
profiledescent
Member
I've experienced (on the same band) digital exceeding readable range of analog, as well as analog exceeding digital. The former more than the later, and installation variables existed.
Note I mentioned in same band. Many of the critics of digital judge their experiences based on an established analog system they have used, that is then replaced by a digital system at a much higher frequency. That frequency not propagating as well as the lower freq. Also, to get true/valid comparisons, the competing equipment should be compared by being tested, then swapped out on the same cavities, feed line, and antenna.
On the DTV example, it's not widely publicized, but the DTV signal is being transmitted at lower power than analog was. Follow the money on that one.
When the digital TV transition started, broadcasters were in effect promised better coverage at lower power levels (translation=lower transmitter electric bills). In reality, in most markets, the UHF digital didn't penetrate as well as the models indicated. Quite a few broadcasters asked the FCC for higher power authorizations to get coverage up to pre-digital levels. So much for the "green" aspects of the digital conversion. The smart broadcasters who stayed on VHF high channels usually had close to analog coverage with lower power levels.
P25 and DMR. The end.
D-Star costs too much, has no analog compatibility mode, and no matter how much people yammer about it not being proprietary, every D-Star radio says Icom on it.
System Fusion has those same problems, plus being way late to the party.
P25 has been around long enough that commercial surplus gear is getting affordable, and brand-new DMR equipment costs like good-quality analog ham gear.
Neither system is proprietary, and both have extensive multi-manufacturer support.
Honestly, I don't think I will ever buy another ham FM rig anyway. They're fiddly. They have too many buttons to access too many features that most folks never use (when's the last time you used ARTS or crossband repeat on an HT?). They're delicate. They don't have half the accessory support (compared to Motorola, at least). They're all tiny now, which is a pain for those of us with big hands and means they dissipate PA heat poorly.
The first generation of ham FM gear was mostly commercial surplus, and it stayed that way for a while. Why shouldn't we stick that model for the first generation of digital? The kinks have already been worked out, in environments more trying and with higher stakes than most hams will ever need to worry about.
D-Star costs too much, has no analog compatibility mode, and no matter how much people yammer about it not being proprietary, every D-Star radio says Icom on it.
System Fusion has those same problems, plus being way late to the party.
P25 has been around long enough that commercial surplus gear is getting affordable, and brand-new DMR equipment costs like good-quality analog ham gear.
Neither system is proprietary, and both have extensive multi-manufacturer support.
Honestly, I don't think I will ever buy another ham FM rig anyway. They're fiddly. They have too many buttons to access too many features that most folks never use (when's the last time you used ARTS or crossband repeat on an HT?). They're delicate. They don't have half the accessory support (compared to Motorola, at least). They're all tiny now, which is a pain for those of us with big hands and means they dissipate PA heat poorly.
The first generation of ham FM gear was mostly commercial surplus, and it stayed that way for a while. Why shouldn't we stick that model for the first generation of digital? The kinks have already been worked out, in environments more trying and with higher stakes than most hams will ever need to worry about.
rapidcharger
Member
Maybe you should buy an icom d-star radio or system fusion radio because you'd find out they do have analog compatibility.
P25 gear may be getting affordable (I haven't noticed), but the infrastructure remains high. Just because you can buy an old XTS3000 for $100, doesn't mean there's a repeater to use it on. A quantar still costs an arm and a leg and as a result, there's not many of them on the ham bands. Nowhere near as many as there are for d-star. And I have yet to come across and P25 linked repeater network. So if you like talking to yourself, P25 is splendid. I'm speaking from actual experience as I have owned radios for all the digital voice modes.
Multi-manufacturer support? I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you're talking about compatibility across brands, well at the end of the day, what it boils down to is, "Do you want to talk to other people or do you want to talk to yourself?" I live in a city with 6 million people. We have ONE, that's it, p25 repeater that has excellent coverage. It's dead quiet. In digital that is. We have 2 DMR repeaters that are also dead on the local talkgroups.
D-star expensive? You can buy a brand new d-star radio for $289. I'd love to know what DMR radio or P25 radio you can buy new, with warranty for $289 or less.
I'm very sorry that you've never found a use for crossband repeat or ARTs. ARTS is not just on their ham radios by the way. It's also available on their commercial LMR line. And they've improved it. Now there's ARTS II. So I guess you like the no-buttons approach that seems to be popular amongst i-phone users. If you don't like having buttons on your radio, you should really look into D-star. The ID-5100 has only one button on the face of the radio and that's just to turn it on and off.
Just because a radio is tiny doesn't mean it dissipates heat poorly. But I think what you meant to say is "they just don't look enough like the po-leece." and that would definitely a valid point. There's a lot of whackers out there and they want to look like the cops and that requires a Motolola P25 radio. Just remember, that all those phase 1 surplus radios that are coming down are going to look like old police radios now that the cops are going to something that looks completely different. Would you rather be the guy with the pocket-friendly ham radio with all the buttons on it or the guy who shows up with his 15 year old fossil that no public safety agency uses anymore? Just look at the people who walk around with their giant astro sabers and tell me that's cutting edge.
And those older p25 radios sound like crap on digital. If there was more than just yourself to talk to on P25, I suppose someone on the other end would have told you what your audio sounds like.
As far as the first generation of ham gear being commercial surplus, that might have been the second generation of ham gear. The first generation, you had to build yourself. Are you sure that's the generation you want to stick with? It really sounds like you want to stick with the old technologies and not move forward but lots of hams like to try new things and not be stuck with some out-dated, obsolete, featureless technology that offers very few benefits.
And when it comes to the size of buttons, the buttons on my LMR radios are the same size as they are on my ham radios. In fact, on a couple they are actually smaller. It sounds like you have a disability that prevents you from using your radios and should consider a prosthetic finger extension to enable you to press the buttons. Or if your insurance won't cover it, you could try taking a golf pencil and taping it to one of your fingers with masking tape. Yet another reason to switch the newer generation of radios, because they've made changes to accommodate those with that very same disability.
Methinks you need to spend some more time trying the other digital voice modes and not be so set in your ways. You'll like what you'll find.
N4KVE
Member
Brand new CS700's are going for $185 direct from the importer. Of course there are opportunistic people trying to get $285 on that auction site. Are there any D-Star radios sold in the USA that do NOT say Icom? Older Astro Sabers that have recent fw sound great.
rapidcharger
Member
How about first generation kenwoods and icom f70s? Do they sound great with recent firmware?
And can you tell us what hardware and software is required to update the firmware on a Astro Saber?
The connect systems website is down so I can't check the prices direct from the importer but I can see them on thiefbay and amazon for $280.That's still $9 cheaper than an id-31a so that counts. Ya got me.
But those radios just showed up on the scene about 6 ot 8 months ago. The Icom has been around for longer so if d-star has been more widely adopted, using the same logic used above "first generation is what we should use", then Icom was first.
That's not what I'm advocating for, I'm just saying, that's what kf5ydr said we should do.
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Folks, let's try to express our opinions without lobbing insults or making assumptions about the other party's motivations.
I've often said that I would give digital voice over amateur radio serious consideration (that is, I'd think about buying a digital radio) when someone could demonstrate to me that digital voice would allow me to do something I couldn't do with analog voice. I'm still waiting.
That said, if all your buddies have moved to some digital mode you have two choices: buy a radio for that mode or find different friends. I have a number of friends who have purchased D-Star radios. I can still talk to them on analog, so my digital radio money has remained in my pocket. But, guess what...we are about to have a DMR repeater in town and maybe a System Fusion repeater. What do I do then? Probably the same thing I'm doing now...keeping my digital radio money in my pocket.
I've often said that I would give digital voice over amateur radio serious consideration (that is, I'd think about buying a digital radio) when someone could demonstrate to me that digital voice would allow me to do something I couldn't do with analog voice. I'm still waiting.
That said, if all your buddies have moved to some digital mode you have two choices: buy a radio for that mode or find different friends. I have a number of friends who have purchased D-Star radios. I can still talk to them on analog, so my digital radio money has remained in my pocket. But, guess what...we are about to have a DMR repeater in town and maybe a System Fusion repeater. What do I do then? Probably the same thing I'm doing now...keeping my digital radio money in my pocket.
I just want to see more done with it, so we can figure out what digital can do that analog can't. Amateur radio is about experimenting. It feels like there's a lot of backlash against digital that doesn't make any sense to me. Analog FM is still there for anyone who wants to use it, and it's not going anywhere.
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A SmartRIB, an Astro Saber programming cable, a FlashKey and iButton with valid flashes left on it, and Astro CPS. Unlikely you can get your hands on all of those as an individual, but there are dozens of Astro Sabers with recent firmware for sale on eBay all the time and folks on Batboard, P25.ca, and probably this forum who will flash your radio for you if you need it.
N4KVE
Member
Yup, $35 & a $6 flat rate box.
I initially went full bore into DStar when it was first introduced but quickly found the narrow 6.25khz bandwidth resulted in poor audio quality (compared to analog) which turned me off. The "talking into a barrel" audio affect was a major turn-off for me, so now I'm switching over to Yaesu's Fusion system because in its wider digital mode it sounds better than DStar. Plus if Yaesu ever gets around to releasing their new WIRES-X Internet Interface hams will be able to link their digital equipment long distances from station directly to any other station via the internet, without the need to tie up a repeater. This is something DStar hasn't been designed to do. Plus I like the idea that Yaesu has an option camera microphone that permits the operator to capture a photo and transmit it over the air to another Fusion equipped station. Very nice!
Yaesu is getting in the digital game late (currently ~100 Fusion repeaters vs ~2200 DStar repeaters) but more Fusions repeaters are coming on-line every month. It seems what Yaesu has done was to take into account the downsides of DStar and design their Fusion system to work around the issues, plus add more features; incorporating analog AND digital into their Fusion repeaters, being just one advantage, so C4FM digital as well as legacy FM equipment can be repeated through the new Fusion repeaters. Now the question big question..., will hams pick up on the advantages of the Fusion system and start making the switch? Time will tell.
Yaesu is getting in the digital game late (currently ~100 Fusion repeaters vs ~2200 DStar repeaters) but more Fusions repeaters are coming on-line every month. It seems what Yaesu has done was to take into account the downsides of DStar and design their Fusion system to work around the issues, plus add more features; incorporating analog AND digital into their Fusion repeaters, being just one advantage, so C4FM digital as well as legacy FM equipment can be repeated through the new Fusion repeaters. Now the question big question..., will hams pick up on the advantages of the Fusion system and start making the switch? Time will tell.
FeedForward
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That's what I was trying to say as well. Personally, I'm not excited one bit about amateur radio being just another tentacle of the WWW.
profiledescent: excellent points about comparing apples to apples.
FF
rapidcharger
Member
I'm not here to argue one digital flavor over the other.
The point I'm trying to make is there are reasons why we have so many to chose from. What works well for one person may not work well for another.
Its easy for me to see why D-star has become so popular why others haven't. Even though I don't use d-star any longer. The OP was complaining there are so many to choose from or you have to buy "a dozen different radios". On the one hand, that's inconvenient, I certainly agree but on the other hand, it gives us more choices for things that make serve our individual needs better. They can all be bridged together if the network admins would permit that and that, in my opinion, is more to blame than manufacturers that won't make an all-in-one radio. An unwillingness to want to cooperate amongst for-profit competitors but an unwillingess to want to cooperate amongst hams is something I don't fully understand.
The point I'm trying to make is there are reasons why we have so many to chose from. What works well for one person may not work well for another.
Its easy for me to see why D-star has become so popular why others haven't. Even though I don't use d-star any longer. The OP was complaining there are so many to choose from or you have to buy "a dozen different radios". On the one hand, that's inconvenient, I certainly agree but on the other hand, it gives us more choices for things that make serve our individual needs better. They can all be bridged together if the network admins would permit that and that, in my opinion, is more to blame than manufacturers that won't make an all-in-one radio. An unwillingness to want to cooperate amongst for-profit competitors but an unwillingess to want to cooperate amongst hams is something I don't fully understand.
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