Amateur radio disaster preparedness in action

[bill4long]

Bill what I said was if you are not trained you are not needed on Emergency Scenes. Take you YELLOW VEST and CHEAP CHINESE RADIO stay out of the way.
That is my point. NO WACKERS.
You have an opinion have you ever put your life on the line?
Take you 22 Rifle and run into the middle of the Army's war scene. They will remove you one way or the other.
The last thing I would have needed was a WACKER with a Cheap Chinese Radio in a Hazardous Enviromint to cause an EXPLOSION.

Did you read what I wrote? CERT rejects whackers.

 

[EAFrizzle]

It sounds like (from the complaints) that whackers are showing up in droves at every major incident and interfering with operations.

I will add that in my area (N VA), I have never seen wackers as described here show up at and emergency activity.

I'd like to know where  exactly these "whackers" are showing up at. I've been through 5 windstorm hurricanes, 2 regional tropical storm floods, more seasonal area floods than I can count, and the occasional ice storm, and I've never seen anyone like that. Scammers, thieves, con men, and such, but never one of these whackers. I have more than a sneaking suspicion that they're mostly a boogeyman or delusion.

Seriously, guys, if you're going to scapegoat some people, you have to make sure they actually exist. I have yet to see a whacker in the wild, I've only read these stories of thylacines and mome raths. And I've never seen a news story about them, either. That's not evidence of their non-existence, but neither is your vitriol nor invective. Judging from the depth of contempt from some here towards these "whackers", I'd say it's from something more than just idiots keying up radios.


Who knows? Maybe we've just been through enough actual disasters in Houston that we don't do stupid crap in times of trouble.

 

[EAFrizzle]

And now y'all have got me wondering about the demographics of these whackers. I'm assuming that they're mostly white, young to middle-age, dorks that were bullied as a child and now have a hero complex.

If we did have any whackers show up, they likely didn't make it out alive. I know what would happen on the Northside, and we're the nice folks in town!

 

[K9KLC]

I'd like to know where  exactly these "whackers" are showing up at.

I've never seen one show up at any of the events or situations our club was asked to help out at.

I have yet to see a whacker in the wild, I've only read these stories of thylacines and mome raths. And I've never seen a news story about them, either. That's not evidence of their non-existence, but neither is your vitriol nor invective. Judging from the depth of contempt from some here towards these "whackers", I'd say it's from something more than just idiots keying up radios.

At least in this area, I would have to say the situation is the same.

 

[buddrousa]

When you have untrained people with boats with no medical training no lifejackets and no communications show up at flooding you just have to tell them to leave or have to use resources to remove them from the area.

 

[dlwtrunked]

...

If you are working with some agency, you're trained, and you are being requested, you're not a whacker. Wearing vests to direct traffic at an event you have been requested to work? Not a whacker. The stuff that you describe, I would never describe as whackerism. When you put your vest on, turn your yellow strobes on, show up to a scene or disaster with your MARS/CAP modified radio, unprepared, untrained, and unrequested, you are a whacker to the core.

Not exactly true ("you're trained") in all cases. When working with the county in the EOC as ARES, they expect us to already know what we are doing. (ARES own training is not really of great use for that and it is more an issue of being *smart people* who adapt to what is being done and needed.) In the case of being in VIPS (Volunteers in Police Service) for SAR (Search and Rescue), although amateur radio operators used for communications, we use their radios, required state forms, and county systems so it is not really amateur radio, we go through the identical monthly training of all their members--which include tracking, how to used GPS, how to use Stokes litter basket to extract a found person, etc. Another thing, when people say you are only "there" for communications, that has never been true for any of the things I have been involved in. Yes, you are their as communication support, but if they need help in doing something else and you can do it, you should (they will remember if you just sit on the sidelines watching). On 9/11 at the Pentagon, I helped unload trucks (when message traffic was low), at the county EOC before GIS people were involved. And smart agencies even ask in the after wash for our comments. Sometimes it is more about being a smart person rather than being about the hardware or even training. And there are definitely some people who should not be involved because of that or their personality (and even how they look). (No strobes on my vehicle, it needs room for antennas and many newer strobes create interference also.) Yes, training helps, but having the right people is more important.

 

[K9KLC]

Yes, training helps, but having the right people is more important.

This, exactly this.

 

[k6cpo]

In addition to the ARES duties I have previously mentioned, my club — located in Chula Vista, CA, an incorporated city south of San Diego — is a recognized volunteer organization with the fire department in that city. A number of our members have been vetted by the city and carry city ID badges. To date, the city has only asked for the use of our repeaters for their CERT team during a wildfire emergency and this has only happened once. The give us the use of a classroom at their fire training station for our meetings and we have two of our repeaters located on an underutilized city tower and building. We usually support some of the department's outreach activities, such as the annual pancake breakfast fundraiser and we display at the department's annual open house. Other than that, they haven't asked much of us.

It is possible to have a good working relationship with a government entity without much effort.

 

[alcahuete]

...although amateur radio operators used for communications, we use their radios...

...when people say you are only "there" for communications, that has never been true for any of the things I have been involved in.

So in actuality, it's not amateur radio at all. You're using their radios. You're just another volunteer like anyone else. You just happen to have a ham license. It's like saying that pilots are saving the day because a bunch of them show up to volunteer, and they just happen to have pilots licenses.

Again, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like I said, in Puerto Rico, they showed up and while they weren't useful to me, the Red Cross found them useful. It wasn't even really that their ham radios were needed. They could have just shown up and used the banks of sat phones and computers that were readily available. But then again, that wouldn't make the amateur radio headlines.

 

[dlwtrunked]

So in actuality, it's not amateur radio at all. You're using their radios. You're just another volunteer like anyone else. You just happen to have a ham license. It's like saying that pilots are having the day because a bunch of them show up to volunteer, and they just happen to have pilots licenses.

Again, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like I said, in Puerto Rico, they showed up and while they weren't useful to me, the Red Cross found them useful. It wasn't even really that their ham radios were needed. They could have just shown up and used the banks of sat phones and computers that were readily available. But then again, that wouldn't make the amateur radio headlines.

Not "just anther volunteer like anyone else", we do have a primary radio responsibility (which in ARES role is utilizing amateur radio). In the case of VIPS, I did say it was not really amateur radio, but all the VIPS radio people are hams and were picked for the knowledge. so again, no jst another volunteer like any one else. I do not understand why you insist on putting down amateur radio.

 

[alcahuete]

I do not understand why you insist on putting down amateur radio.

Not putting down amateur radio at all. What I put down is the idea that many seem to think that amateur radio operators are some sort of first responders, when in actuality, they are nothing more than hobbyists, just like any other hobby.

You say your primary responsibility is using amateur radio, but then you say in the same post that you don't use amateur radios at all. You use their radios. So which is it? Again, are you so important to whatever agency because you are an amateur radio operator, or are you important to the agency because you have a bunch of other skills? It doesn't sound like the agency keeps you around because you're a ham (since you aren't even using ham radios), it sounds like they keep you around because of your other skills.

20 or 30 years ago, my opinion was completely different, because the technology was completely different. Amateur radio operators were useful to all sorts of agencies, simply because of amateur radio itself. If the Puerto Rican hurricanes and earthquakes happened 30 years ago, a bunch of guys with HF radios would be extremely helpful. Heck, I would call it darn near critical. But now, virtually every new cell phone on the planet can connect to satellites.

 

[MUTNAV]

I'd like to know where  exactly these "whackers" are showing up at. I've been through 5 windstorm hurricanes, 2 regional tropical storm floods, more seasonal area floods than I can count, and the occasional ice storm, and I've never seen anyone like that. Scammers, thieves, con men, and such, but never one of these whackers. I have more than a sneaking suspicion that they're mostly a boogeyman or delusion.

Seriously, guys, if you're going to scapegoat some people, you have to make sure they actually exist. I have yet to see a whacker in the wild, I've only read these stories of thylacines and mome raths. And I've never seen a news story about them, either. That's not evidence of their non-existence, but neither is your vitriol nor invective. Judging from the depth of contempt from some here towards these "whackers", I'd say it's from something more than just idiots keying up radios.


Who knows? Maybe we've just been through enough actual disasters in Houston that we don't do stupid crap in times of trouble.

According to previous posts, the police are called to deal with people that want to help but are less qualified, so I don't really imagine this as much of a problem.

I would like to know how many people that drive the large and old Chevy Caprices are doing. The ones with all of the antennas and light bars (I assume without lights), and other accoutrements of police cars from 30 years ago. Are whackers, or just wanna-bes that no enough to stay away from real incidents.

I'm starting to think that there are LOTS of people that want to help, as long as it's not too inconvenient, but they don't have (and I hate to say it, intellectual capacity) to do so.

Last year while filling up with gas, about 3 fire engines raced past the station, sirens screaming.... then I saw a younger adult look at the emergency fuel shut off switch for the station and the sign that said "In case of fire, Push", he looked back at where the engines had gone by, then back at the big red button, and started to reach for it.... he was then yelled at by a bystander to not push the switch.

Unfortunately, it could go well beyond that. While watching the news of the fires in California, there was a segment about a guy trying to start more fires with a propane torch. and I had to wonder if he was just doing what had he had seen in the news (un-burnt dead brush should be burned in a controlled burn, and sometimes fire breaks can be made with limited burning ahead of a fire).

I don't see a good solution to this kind of thing. There probably isn't, just stay vigilant, and make sure we aren't part of the problem.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Not putting down amateur radio at all. What I put down is the idea that many seem to think that amateur radio operators are some sort of first responders, when in actuality, they are nothing more than hobbyists, just like any other hobby.

I agree with you completely... as a hobbyist though, it's possible that you ARE the first person at a problem not "responding", just there . Just as I expect a boater to be able to help in a man overboard situation (a lot harder than it seems sometimes), everyone should probably be prepared for the routine disasters that happen all of the time (with reflectors or flares, a vest (either yellow or green ), and maybe a flashlight, and for most of us, a cell phone, a radio could be nice if outside of cell coverage.

Thanks
Joel

 

[dlwtrunked]

Not putting down amateur radio at all. What I put down is the idea that many seem to think that amateur radio operators are some sort of first responders, when in actuality, they are nothing more than hobbyists, just like any other hobby.

You say your primary responsibility is using amateur radio, but then you say in the same post that you don't use amateur radios at all. You use their radios. So which is it? Again, are you so important to whatever agency because you are an amateur radio operator, or are you important to the agency because you have a bunch of other skills? It doesn't sound like the agency keeps you around because you're a ham (since you aren't even using ham radios), it sounds like they keep you around because of your other skills.

20 or 30 years ago, my opinion was completely different, because the technology was completely different. Amateur radio operators were useful to all sorts of agencies, simply because of amateur radio itself. If the Puerto Rican hurricanes and earthquakes happened 30 years ago, a bunch of guys with HF radios would be extremely helpful. Heck, I would call it darn near critical. But now, virtually every new cell phone on the planet can connect to satellites.

As ARES in the EOC, we are amateur radio on amateur frequencies. I mentioned the VIPS when we are on the county system with the note that they recruited from the amateur community for that need and experience even though we are not on amateur frequencies for that need. We operate as the Search and Rescue "Base" relaying communications for the county command to the search teams (composed of SO, FD and volunteers).

I was also at the Pentagon after 9/11. That was even more complicated. I was there as an one of the amateurs supporting the supply lines for the recovery effort. When I was being badged for the operation (FBI doing it), the issue was who would vouch for me as the supply people were concerned they did not really know me. But then there was no one to badge for them. I ended up doing that for all of us as I had my work DOD credentials as a government civilian employee. And then they paused making my badge, was I amateur radio, Salvation Army (who did the supply chain around and into the Pentagon to fire fighter and others), or what? They did the natural thing to badge me as DOD though I was doing amateur radio ARES activity. I ended up having to vouch for the people who were reluctant to vouch for me. So roles in an actual emergency are not a clear cut one thing. (When my Army lab found out what I was doing taking annual leave as a volunteer, they rescinded the leave and temporarily assigned to the Pentagon to do what I was doing until no longer needed-yes, as a civilian DOD employee, DODy can do that. (As an amateur I cannot take money for what I did so. I spoke to the FCC and my pay was donated to charities that were involded.) So I ended up being an Army civillian employee (a PhD mathematician) doing doing amateur radio to support supply lines. No one had a problem with that.

In a real emergency, sometimes roles overlap and one has to be flexible as needs arise rather than define beforehand some narrow role though that will often be his primary first duty. Volunteering as such requires one to understand the commitment.

The worst thing I saw was a few amateurs show up just wanting to be there a bit to see things and then go home (which caused trouble with transporting them out of the scene). (My four days there started at around 10 am and ended at around 2 pm the next day.)

 

[MTS2000des]

For all those that strap on your ARES™ (of ARRL) badges, flashing lights, etc., who's liability/workers comp insurance covers you if you get injured "on the job" or worse yet, if something bad happens, equipment damaged/destroyed, or loss of life occurs? Asking for a friend...

 

[cactus360]

Back in the day when radio systems when limited in channel capacity and coverage extra communications capability was often valuable and appreciated.

Now days with simulcast repeated radio systems, cellular technology, plenty of side channels, First Net, satellite comms, mobile data computers, mobile communications trailers and highly capable mobile command posts tons of those old issues with communications capability simply don't exist anymore. There is still a place for ARES / RACES, but in our area it is becoming less important. And there is no tolerance for freelancers.

So the idea of simply being an "untrained" ham with a nice radio and showing up to an incident is really not relevant, and I am not sure if it ever really was.

As noted in other posts, truly coming across whackers in the wild is pretty rare. The most common run in with people was individuals implying they were law enforcement. Often security guards inserting themselves into something they should not have and getting in over their heads quickly.

As I got closer to retirement the biggest issue was with gawkers. People trespassing, entering farmlands on ATV / UTV and trying to get into the "tape" to get the "perfect" photos to post on social media. Seems like everyone wanted to be the first to post pictures of incidents on Facebook, Etc... and that gave them some type of special permission to do stupid things.

 

[ladn]

As I got closer to retirement the biggest issue was with gawkers. People trespassing, entering farmlands on ATV / UTV and trying to get into the "tape" to get the "perfect" photos to post on social media. Seems like everyone wanted to be the first to post pictures of incidents on Facebook, Etc... and that gave them some type of special permission to do stupid things.

I (and probably @trentbob) often saw the same thing as a (credentialed) news photographer. Untrained/unqualified "freelancers" with mail order press passes and cheap point and shoot cameras. They'd get in the way one too many times and cause immediate difficulties as well as long term tension between emergency responders and the news media.

 

[trentbob]

I (and probably @trentbob) often saw the same thing as a (credentialed) news photographer. Untrained/unqualified "freelancers" with mail order press passes and cheap point and shoot cameras. They'd get in the way one too many times and cause immediate difficulties as well as long term tension between emergency responders and the news media.

Yes Rodger you know all too well. We are older and go back before social media.

We can't discount that things started to change after the death of Princess Diane as a result of paparazzi's and then of course 911 and the Patriot Act.

Police attitudes changed towards the personnel that would show up and would be close to or part of a an emergency situation requiring fire and police.

I just adjusted, worked in a high crime inner city for a long time and was recognized by every police officer or official as to who I was.

No yellow vests LOL, never wore my credentials until it's the right time to do so. Not an overwhelming amount of equipment, just what I needed in a F-2 bag.

I would just covertly get my job done, relied on friendly neighbors who would let me on their porch or I would just join onlookers, get everything I needed for the front page and the inside. Then I would show up with my credentials on.

Some police were friendly and some weren't. If I got kicked out of the scene by some rogue cop who didn't like me, I would just put my hands up in the air and go, no problem and leave. I had everything I needed already. Honestly, most of the cops in my city were cooperative, friendly and would allow me behind the line.

As a well-known full-time member of the far more popular of the two seven-day week dailies in my city, I think they found that worked better for them as I was someone they didn't want to have a beef with.

Newer media, freelancers get lumped in together with everyone the cops don't want/need at the scene.. I imagine members of organized ARES groups might get the same mentality from police officials.