APX NEXT - when you run out of numbers

[johnoconnor98]

The APX Next line would last about 3 minutes once issued to a firefighter.....

The same could be said of an anvil, so.....

 

[johnoconnor98]

Why would anyone in the fire service or law enforcement need a touchscreen

My dept of 2000+ officers has been paperless for 10 years. They aren't even allowed to do paper reports anymore. Everything is done on their PDA. Typing the reports, scanning licenses, taking pictures. If they type in a witness name, the system will automatically look for warrants and instantly notify the officer to follow up.

Why would they need a $13,000 device to do that instead of the FREE slide out keypad PDA the phone company provides? They don't.

 

[Firebuff880]

Not viable for many users around here where cross programming of other agencies' systems requires coordination and time. Nevermind the disaster scenario, where we get deployed to some remote part of our state (which is quite rural) and you're lucky to find a dialup modem line let alone broadband. When it's sunny and 70 degrees at that.

When you deploy to a disaster the FirstNet LTE activation is done (and most likely useless), the Wave Smart Connect is probably completely useless and if you need anything more than a Conventional Analog channel, then I agree a simple standalone touch should be all that's necessary -- But the NIFOG Inter-ops should be somewhere the Com-T can find them in the radio already so it really should be a NO touch scenario.

Expecting any system that might survive to be able to handle anything more than the now peaking "local" load plus maybe the Task force or Strike Team leaders is a recipe for another disaster. An even then incoming teams should be self contained once they leave base on an assignment until they return with maybe a single Calling Channel (I-Tac Calling), or satellite or other link (Military HF) to reach back if they get over whelmed in anyway.

Of all the times I assisted IMT teams in the field or deployed with one, I can't ever remember the local infrastructure being usable when they arrived or at the height of the event.

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[jthorpe]

When you deploy to a disaster the FirstNet LTE activation is done (and most likely useless), the Wave Smart Connect is probably completely useless and if you need anything more than a Conventional Analog channel, then I agree a simple standalone touch should be all that's necessary -- But the NIFOG Inter-ops should be somewhere the Com-T can find them in the radio already so it really should be a NO touch scenario.

Expecting any system that might survive to be able to handle anything more than the now peaking "local" load plus maybe the Task force or Strike Team leaders is a recipe for another disaster. An even then incoming teams should be self contained once they leave base on an assignment until they return with maybe a single Calling Channel (I-Tac Calling), or satellite or other link (Military HF) to reach back if they get over whelmed in anyway.

Of all the times I assisted IMT teams in the field or deployed with one, I can't ever remember the local infrastructure being usable when they arrived or at the height of the event.

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Interesting because during both Florence and Dorian here in NC, USAR teams and Paramedics from around the country were given cache radios that worked on our system. Even during Florence, I believe only one site went down and that was because it was 10 feet under water. The system handled the traffic without issues and barely any system busies.

 

[jthorpe]

No, CPS will still be there to use, or so I was told. The software may go to a subscription model, but having to connect to a network to program a radio is not part of that, for the various reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure about stand alone CPS but it will be programmed without issue with Radio Management. I find some of these comments kind of out there honestly. I think some folks are forgetting that this just isn't an LTE device. It's P25 as well. I've never put my hands on one but I wouldn't knock it yet. I wasn't happy when the APX line came out and now I can't imagine going back to XTS.

 

[MTS2000des]

I'm not sure about stand alone CPS but it will be programmed without issue with Radio Management. I find some of these comments kind of out there honestly. I think some folks are forgetting that this just isn't an LTE device. It's P25 as well.

Not being able to do standalone programming is a deal killer. I don't, and won't, be forced to use any radio management software that isn't vendor agnostic. The big con job for migrating to these costly P-25 networks was supposedly to be able to have more than a sole source vendor subscriber on a given system. A product that relies on implementing a costly, single vendor SaaS RM is completely opposite of that mindset.

 

[jthorpe]

Not being able to do standalone programming is a deal killer. I don't, and won't, be forced to use any radio management software that isn't vendor agnostic. The big con job for migrating to these costly P-25 networks was supposedly to be able to have more than a sole source vendor subscriber on a given system. A product that relies on implementing a costly, single vendor SaaS RM is completely opposite of that mindset.

Radio Management is made by Motorola. CPS will still work from what I understand. The network I program for has 8000 radios all over the state. I'll take what I can get because as it stands, we do may too much driving. The amount of time it saves us is worth it. It depends on the network and what you have to deal with. I would give anything to have OTAP right now, but I don't.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Does the system send the entire code plug during OTAP or just the changes?
Does each radio send an acknowledgement?
Does the data go over the control channel?

 

[ResQguy]

Does the system send the entire code plug during OTAP or just the changes?
Does each radio send an acknowledgement?
Does the data go over the control channel?

1. With later revisions of both system and subscriber OTAP will only send the deltas.
2. Yes, the radio will ACK the download (but still requires the end user to accept changes).
3. No, the files are transferred over an IV&D channel.

 

[ResQguy]

I don't, and won't, be forced to use any radio management software that isn't vendor agnostic.

So, you find that sending technicians all over the county with spreadsheets and laptops is more reliable than multiple platforms of RM? I understand your feelings but I like being able to know at a moment's notice what the status is on all my radios more than I'm mad at manufacturers. And I like being able to change my fleet over in days instead of weeks.

 

[MTS2000des]

So, you find that sending technicians all over the county with spreadsheets and laptops is more reliable than multiple platforms of RM? I understand your feelings but I like being able to know at a moment's notice what the status is on all my radios more than I'm mad at manufacturers. And I like being able to change my fleet over in days instead of weeks.

Must be nice to AFFORD this. That is the problem, the cost. Where I work, we had to beg for a decade to get the NTE 19.1 million to replace a 28 year old Smartnet system. Then a year later, went back to "beg" for another NTE 10 million for subscribers to replace 14 year old XTS5000s. It's very difficult to justify $13,000 a pop for subs, then a REQUIRED subscription and REQUIRED RM platform.

Many agencies fight for funding to buy used radios or are looking at other options (Kenwood/EFJ, Tait/Harris, Relm) as the cost of MSI P25 keeps getting more and more expensive. Creating a walled garden may work for Apple with millions of users but not public safety. P25 was sold to us as an "open standard" but APX NEXT is as walled in as a maximum security prison.

Not interested.

 

[wa8pyr]

1. With later revisions of both system and subscriber OTAP will only send the deltas.
2. Yes, the radio will ACK the download (but still requires the end user to accept changes).
3. No, the files are transferred over an IV&D channel.

But, IV&D channels are very slow, so you can only do so many radios in a given period. On top of that, as voice traffic increases, IV&D availability is gradually decreased, eventually to zero if voice traffic is really heavy.

Many agencies fight for funding to buy used radios or are looking at other options (Kenwood/EFJ, Tait/Harris, Relm) as the cost of MSI P25 keeps getting more and more expensive. Creating a walled garden may work for Apple with millions of users but not public safety. P25 was sold to us as an "open standard" but APX NEXT is as walled in as a maximum security prison.

Mostly concur. There's no substitute for having the ability to touch a radio and program it with CPS locally, with no need for an internet connection so the software can phone home to the mothership; RM is great as long as you have a dedicated private network to connect through, but if all connections to the outside world are down you're screwed.

I'm keeping an open mind as regards the APX Next. I'll get a couple for testing, and as long as the radio can be programmed with CPS which does not require contact with the outside world it could be viable for certain uses in our county. But as soon as /\/\oto starts requiring calls to the mothership for programming their radios, they're gone from our system; we'll be perfectly happy to go with Harris, EFKenJohnwoodson, or Tait (RELM is out of the running as they have no local service shops anywhere remotely close).

 

[12dbsinad]

I am still trying to figure out what these radio's are good for? Chief's and command staff? Seems kind of a limited market. This fancy touch screen does absolutely no good in turnout gear in a burning building or hanging off a duty belt other than get damaged. A LTE handset is much cheaper for that function. I mean it's probably cool and all, but how practical is it for public safety users given the cost and control of M?

Good luck to all you Mother M users drinking the Kool-Aid, it makes our Harris sales go thru the roof...

 

[jthorpe]

So, you find that sending technicians all over the county with spreadsheets and laptops is more reliable than multiple platforms of RM? I understand your feelings but I like being able to know at a moment's notice what the status is on all my radios more than I'm mad at manufacturers. And I like being able to change my fleet over in days instead of weeks.

Same for me. We have spreadsheet after spreadsheet along with having to travel the entire state which is 500 miles from end to end. I know the stuff is expensive, but sometimes the cost of being spread out is too high, along with the enormous amount of time.

 

[Thunderknight]

I can't speak to the NEXT and programming, but we use RM on the 8000/8500 series. We have it in a closed network, no internet access. Remote locations have VPN tunnels back to the server location. It really isn't that expensive when compared to running all over the place (man hours, miles, hotels, per diems) every time we need to do an update (which is a lot due to the area we cover). I didn't buy their hardware...I bought an off the shelf server and installed RM on it.

And I can still touch a radio with CPS and cable if I need to...I just schedule a read job in RM after the fact so it stays in sync with any manual changes.

M tried to sell us a hosted turnkey solution for RM when we bought it...we said nope, we want it on our network under our control. They agreed.