are all police channels in sydney encrypted now

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grant

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Damm, 5 mins after I typed this, the dispatcher encryption has been switched back on
Just when it was getting interesting
The cops were chasing a thief through Surry Hills and the dog vehicle was about to head over and assist.

Grant
 

Raccon

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AZScanner said:
And the shameless scanner bash continues. Now we're just getting our jollies and wasting time listening to public safety, to hear you tell it. Nevermind that thousands of today's officers and dispatchers were once wide eyed young kids who listened to a scanner and felt something resonate inside, leading to a career in public safety. Nevermind the thousands of volunteers in the US alone that use their scanners to assist their local police department and keep their neighborhoods safer. Nevermind the countless thousands of scanner listeners across the Midwestern US that use their scanner to monitor during severe weather so they'll know whether or not they should take shelter, etc. [...]
Strawman arguments, because scanners are certainly not the only reason why people choose a public safety career and where people should get their information from, in fact I am not aware that people should get any such information from scanners rather than other means, like public media / public broadcast.
But I guess there is always some scanner dude that doesn't have a TV or radio and who doesn't read the newspaper but who's life can be saved by not using encryption.

BTW: are those thousand volunteers officially allowed to assist? I mean if they are officially involved they could also be equipped with an encrypted radio by the authorities, with limited talk groups and/or receive only, whatever applies to their function. As such a scanner is not a neccessity to keep the neighbourhood safe, but that fact wouldn't suit your argument I guess.

The truth of it is this: Public resources and policy all over the "free" world are being abused by paranoid politicians and frustrated cops who want to keep their constituents worried about imaginary boogymen and so they can act as they wish freely without media or public scrutiny. It is happening RIGHT NOW in Florida and other parts of the United States. And, apparently it's also happening RIGHT NOW in Sydney. Coincidence? I think not. Yet, here you are, basically a representative of the government, saying "Well it's for your own good. Radio systems are not entertainment. Etc." Is that how you really feel or are you just towing the company line? Is there even a difference?
That argument doesn't work either - in many countries of the free world scanners are prohibited and thus not widely used, nor are there many cases where scanners helped to uncover big government "conspiracies". You should give them a bit more credit, because I am certain they are smart enough not to broadcast their wrong-doings over the air where they know people can listen to it.
That being said can you read their internal email communication? Can you listen to the voice recordings of their telephone calls? Can you read the internal memos? - Lot's of ways they (you know who you are!) can communicate with each other where scanners can't reach.

In fact sometimes making sure that everyone can hear you helps the case, after all your government managed to identify an (imaginary) boogeyman, rally support and take the country into a questionable war. Obviously scanners did nothing to prevent that, did they?

Now I don't know how things are in Australia but here in the states questioning our government is not just a right for US citizens, it's a patriotic duty. Encrypting radio systems may not raise any red flags for you, or most other people for that matter, but it does for me. It signals the loss of yet another freedom. How many will we stand by and idly lose before we realize what we've lost? Today it's the ability to pursue a hobby.
Ah, loosing the freedom to pursue a hobby. Is the best you can do to justify your "right"?

Sorry, but we non-US citizens are not very receptive for "patriotic duties" arguments. Reminds me of some Hollywood movies, that's usually where they get all cheesy, waving the American flag while drifting of into the sunset after saving the world ... sorry, getting off-topic.

Tomorrow it may be the ability to travel freely between states. Next month it might be the ability to voice dissent against the government. Next year it might be the ability to elect our leaders. It all starts somewhere, and it's always for the same reason. "To keep us safe".
But nothing of that has to do with scanning, so encrypting the networks and preventing you from listening has no effect on the other issues you mentioned; i.e. if they wanted to restrict your travel etc. they could just do so anyway.

Points for the right to own a scanner: 0
 

AZScanner

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Raccon said:
Strawman arguments, because scanners are certainly not the only reason why people choose a public safety career and where people should get their information from, in fact I am not aware that people should get any such information from scanners rather than other means, like public media / public broadcast.
But I guess there is always some scanner dude that doesn't have a TV or radio and who doesn't read the newspaper but who's life can be saved by not using encryption.

Wow, the hits just keep on coming. Yet another anti scanner pooper has to come crawling out of the wood work. Alright, let's "have a go" shall we?

Let's start with the public media part of YOUR argument. How's the media supposed to know what's going on if you nitwits encrypt everything? Where do you think THEY get THEIR info from? Do they wave a magic wand, sprinkle some fairy dust and say a few chants? No, they listen to scanners - lots of them. Encryption hinders their ability to do their job and as a result has the potential to endanger many lives, not just the "one scanner dude" you mentioned. NEXT!

Raccon said:
BTW: are those thousand volunteers officially allowed to assist? I mean if they are officially involved they could also be equipped with an encrypted radio by the authorities, with limited talk groups and/or receive only, whatever applies to their function. As such a scanner is not a neccessity to keep the neighbourhood safe, but that fact wouldn't suit your argument I guess.

Well it must be nice to live in a fantasy land where the departments have the money and resources to equip a volunteer neighborhood watch group with $5000 radios (that will likely end up in the wrong hands anyway, according to some posters). Here in the states, if the volunteers want radios they have to pay for them themselves. Ouch. I love my community too, but $5000 is about $4500 shy of what I can afford to invest in the endeavour. Many of the volunteers I mentioned work in an unofficial capacity, becoming an extended set of eyes and ears whenever a kid goes missing or a crook vanishes into the woodwork. Encryption hinders this effort and spreads the already thin "official" resources even thinner. NEXT!

Raccon said:
In fact sometimes making sure that everyone can hear you helps the case, after all your government managed to identify an (imaginary) boogeyman, rally support and take the country into a questionable war. Obviously scanners did nothing to prevent that, did they?

Obviously not. We should just throw away all means to monitor the local authorities and shove our heads in the sand because scanners can't solve everything. :roll:

Raccon said:
Ah, loosing the freedom to pursue a hobby. Is the best you can do to justify your "right"?

"Right?" I never said owning a scanner was my "right". My point is today it's a hobby that most people don't even know about that's in the crosshairs. After that's gone the government will probably look to take away more "potential threats" such as the freedom to travel within the country or the freedom to arm yourself (as your govt has done). All of which will do absolutely nothing to deter criminals and terrorists from plying their trade. Nothing. That makes me wonder: If encryption won't prevent crime what will it prevent? I have my theories, but instead of repeating myself, I'll let you answer that one since you're all in favor of it. This should be good.... NEXT!

Raccon said:
But nothing of that has to do with scanning, so encrypting the networks and preventing you from listening has no effect on the other issues you mentioned; i.e. if they wanted to restrict your travel etc. they could just do so anyway.

Points for the right to own a scanner: 0

Ah we're just going in circles now. Enough. Let's just spend the next few months and see how well your precious encryption has truly helped. I predict it will have an absolute ZERO effect on crime and the ability to catch criminals. But it will put hundreds of tow drivers and freelance newsies out of work, so you get a few (negative) bonus points for that one.

Points for the benefits of fulltime encryption: -100

-AZ
 

grant

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Encryption of NSW Police Radio Rollout Now Underway in Digital Areas.

I have found this document on the net

http://www.pansw.org.au/circulars/Circular15.pdf

POLICE ASSOCIATION OF NEW SOUTH WALES
PO Box A1097, Sydney South, NSW 1232
PHONE: (02) 9265 6777 FAX: (02) 9265 6789 EAGLENET 57071

Circular 15
5 May 2008

Encryption of NSW Police Radio Rollout Now Underway in Digital Areas.

Members should be aware that your Association’s long running campaign for the security of the Police Radio Network has taken a major step to finalisation with the implementation of full digital radio encryption across the Greater Metropolitan Area (Sydney, Newcastle, Central Coast, Wollongong, Blue Mountains and Hawkesbury areas) due to be rolled out to GD's and specialist units this week.

Encryption will provide police within the Greater Metropolitan Area with secure radio transmissions that cannot be monitored by third parties on electronic scanners. This will prevent criminals from scanning police frequencies to learn our methodology and obtain ETA's to scenes of crime. It will also further protect the private information of individuals on whom members conduct CNI and other checks in the field through VKG.

This will open the way for more extensive information being broadcast over police radio. Radio Network Service technicians have been upgrading all radios within the digital radio footprint with a new and secure encryption code in anticipation of the rollout. If a radio was missed during this upgrade, it will not be able to receive encrypted transmissions with the new code. These radios must be taken to the nearest Radio Network Services for an upgrade.

As the rollout occurs, LACs will be warned by the Digital Radio Program team prior to their channel going encrypted. VKG will also make an advisory on air prior to the switch on. The whole process will be conducted remotely by Digital Radio technicians with no requirement for members to turn encryption at their end.

Members should be aware that tow trucks, media agencies and other businesses have historically scanned police radio for accidents and news items, respectively. Following encryption, members should consider the use of rostered tows to clear busy roadways in the absence of any tow truck attendance. Similarly, the Police Media Unit should be informed of incidents requiring a media presence.

Country members travelling into digital/encrypted areas are advised to use the relevant Analogue Liaison Channel if they need to make contact with VKG. A list of Analogue Liaison Channels and the areas they cover are available by sending an internal email to dirad@police.nsw.gov.au. If you have any further inquiries regarding encryption and digital radio, please contact Inspector Craig Fraser, Digital Radio Program on 9265 4674 or dirad@police.nsw.gov.au.

Bob Pritchard
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SkipSanders

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The Tow Trucks long ago lost the ability to ambulance chase with scanners here in California. Used to be an actual law prohibiting scanners in tow trucks and taxicabs, but, sensibly enough, they were removed once the laws changed to make it flatly illegal to show up at a tow site unless you were CALLED to come there, or same for a non-taxi-stand taxi pickup,

Here, the Highway Patrol has a rotating list of acceptable tow companies, and hands off each new call for a tow to the next company on the list. Show up at a scene you weren't called to, and you get into all sorts of problems.
 

grant

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Interestingly over the last couple of weeks since full encryption on a number of channels the techs have turned the despatcher audio only back on to unencrypted mode for a number of hours - to deal with certain problems then just as suddenly it gets switched back

Hmmm - Towies in Sydney are an interesting crowd.
There has long been a history of violence.
I have posted a number of web references if you want to read about the history
I don't think there has been much success in the job allocation trial, as there seems to be the same "first to the acco" intensity in chasing work
Most towing firms in Sydney go to great lengths to hide their radio operations, either on communication rental frequencies (PL/DPL) or trunking (MPT1327, LTR, Motorola Type II)
Some use voice inversion, one or two rolling inversion and I know of one user on 800Mhz TETRA


http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/towtrucks/publications/
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s662351.htm
http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/towtrucks/operations/jas-trial.pdf
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/30/1030508124005.html


Grant
 
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AZScanner

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Thanks Grant. Looks like the universal constant of "When government steps in to solve one problem, they create 10 more in the process" still holds true in Sydney.

Interesting bit about the "analogue" (love the spelling) liaison channels. Any activity on those? I'd be willing to bet those channels will light up during major events. They might be worth a listen if anyone knows what they are.

-AZ
 

grant

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I think we are heavily influenced by the UK/Europe in our spelling

analog = analogue
program = programme
harbor = harbour
color = colour
center (as in location) = centre
meter (as in length) = metre

etc

The US is subtly changing it via Microsoft products


Grant
 

grant

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The analog liaison channel setup seems to work OK
I was listening last night (Wednesday PM Peakhour) to RTA 9 (on road Traffic Supervisor) talking to VKG to chase up a Golf channel (SW Sydney) Highway car to attend a major accident
The interesting part of listening to the analog liaison channel is that you never know who is going to call up or from where .... it has numerous patches tied in from various repeaters both metropolitan and country and even a patch from the GRN (which effectively links up 1/3 of the state via talkgroup 62640).

Grant
 

richardc63

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Interestingly over the last couple of weeks since full encryption on a number of channels the techs have turned the despatcher audio only back on to unencrypted mode for a number of hours - to deal with certain problems then just as suddenly it gets switched back

Hmmm - Towies in Sydney are an interesting crowd.
There has long been a history of violence.
I have posted a number of web references if you want to read about the history
I don't think there has been much success in the job allocation trial, as there seems to be the same "first to the acco" intensity in chasing work
Most towing firms in Sydney go to great lengths to hide their radio operations, either on communication rental frequencies (PL/DPL) or trunking (MPT1327, LTR, Motorola Type II)
Some use voice inversion, one or two rolling inversion and I know of one user on 800Mhz TETRA


http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/towtrucks/publications/
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s662351.htm

Hi Grant,

A little postscript on this one... a bit over a week ago I received a call from Moto that someone had "found" one of our XTS3Ks in their back shed. The "finder" wanted to know if we didn't want it could he keep it. Yeh right! Otherwise the finder was willing to return it to us. I rang the "finder" and found out the radio had been stolen quite some years ago & quite a long distance from where it was found. I got it back yesterday & found it had a standard pre-encryption Police profile... I can't help but think that the timing is not a coincidence- now the radios are useless they are getting dumped... very unusual to get one back this way but then there are many unusual people out there. Yet another benefit of Police going encrypted- reduces the potential sources of suitable radios to steal.

Cheers,


Richard
 

AZScanner

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Yet another benefit of Police going encrypted- reduces the potential sources of suitable radios to steal.

Not to mention stopping all those evil scanner listeners with their deadly tow trucks and news cameras. :roll::roll::roll:

It's a bit premature to call this a resounding success. I still say you'll find that you're losing more radios due to encryption, not less. Before, the bad guys could have just programmed a scanner and listened. Now they'll have to steal a radio - and trust me if they were already stealing them before they'll steal them again. So what if you make it a brick in a few hours? It's still worth $3K at the end of the day. That's plenty of incentive to unbrick it and sell it on flea-bay or whatever.

You'll also find that even though Big M will tell you this is impossible, encryption can and does fail sometimes - see a recent thread in the AZ forum where Mesa PD SWAT had to turn it off to communicate.

Best of luck with it. I predict you'll soon find it's not the cure-all you thought it'd be.

-AZ
 

Raccon

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It's a bit premature to call this a resounding success. I still say you'll find that you're losing more radios due to encryption, not less. Before, the bad guys could have just programmed a scanner and listened. Now they'll have to steal a radio - and trust me if they were already stealing them before they'll steal them again. So what if you make it a brick in a few hours? It's still worth $3K at the end of the day. That's plenty of incentive to unbrick it and sell it on flea-bay or whatever.
I dunno what radios you are thinking of, but I am sure there are quite a few that you do not unbrick so easily. And, depending on the system itself, an unbricked radio will do you no good because it would not be allowed back into the system, thereby rendering it worthless. Not to mention that $3000 seems a rip-off anyway.

You'll also find that even though Big M will tell you this is impossible, encryption can and does fail sometimes - see a recent thread in the AZ forum where Mesa PD SWAT had to turn it off to communicate.
Which might just be a problem with the BigM (their system or radios), not encryption as such.
 
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AZScanner

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Which might just be a problem with the BigM (their system or radios), not encryption as such.

Yeah, now that I read it again, seems so. Here's the thread: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103958

Sounds like those commando-style throat mic's they were using weren't working properly. That, and the fact that a slight breeze seems to be all it takes to screw with the signal around here.

They also (and this seems silly, Phoenix Firebird can communicate with ANY agency in the valley anyway) patched SWAT into an ICALL channel, which is a conventional 800MHz channel meant for mutual aid here in the States, so that SWAT could talk to the helicopter. Weird, but they also might have had to go in the clear because the radio in the helicopter wasn't keyed for Mesa Swat. Who knows...

Just fair warning to agencies that interoperability with encryption is much simpler on paper than it is in practical application. I still think encrypting everything is a stupid, knee-jerk response that fails to address the real problem (cops getting their radios "pinched" all the time) and introduces a host of others (increased inquiries from the media, longer responses for tow trucks, decreased interoperability, etc).

-AZ
 

richardc63

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Yeah, now that I read it again, seems so. Here's the thread: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103958

Sounds like those commando-style throat mic's they were using weren't working properly. That, and the fact that a slight breeze seems to be all it takes to screw with the signal around here.

They also (and this seems silly, Phoenix Firebird can communicate with ANY agency in the valley anyway) patched SWAT into an ICALL channel, which is a conventional 800MHz channel meant for mutual aid here in the States, so that SWAT could talk to the helicopter. Weird, but they also might have had to go in the clear because the radio in the helicopter wasn't keyed for Mesa Swat. Who knows...

Just fair warning to agencies that interoperability with encryption is much simpler on paper than it is in practical application. I still think encrypting everything is a stupid, knee-jerk response that fails to address the real problem (cops getting their radios "pinched" all the time) and introduces a host of others (increased inquiries from the media, longer responses for tow trucks, decreased interoperability, etc).

-AZ

Interoperability issues are rarely technical in nature. Almost always they come down to one agency's people not talking to the others. Whether it is to do with frequency, or CTCSS, or NAC, or something as simple as the talkgroup/channel name it comes down to people agreeing and sharing information. This is nothing new.

I suggested to our people that interop channels/talkgroups should NEVER be encrypted.


Richard
 

SCPD

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Again, I had a bit of a laugh at this thread.
Couple of things I have noticed people saying. The media and the tow truck industry are stuffed now the police in Sydney are encrypted. If any media member is stufed by this, then maybe you deserve it because your not thinking hard enough. I know a couple of guys in the media, and the police is not even something they got most of their work from. If anything, the Ambulance service, which is still easily monitorable with a trunking scanner, gives them the bulk of their work. As do other services which you can still monitor. he police were good for working out the detials of a situation when you were there, or working out who to get in if possible. If your in the media, and the encryption is putting you out of a job. Then maybe you should not be in the job. Just my opinion.

Secondly, the tow truck industry. The polcie going has hit them hard. Thing is, their work is much narower then someone form the media. They wanted to hear about accidents. Just about all accidents where cars needed towing went over the police channels. Sure if someone is injured and there is fuel over the road, then they could listen to other services. But this is not always the case, and they are missing out on work in a big way. Much of them also don't have the sense to expend to listening to other services, despite just about all of them having scaners well capabl of doing so. Many are now relying on spotters and other tip offs. Police are not allowed to ring ow companies either. So the situation is grim in a big way. Many are starting to go out of business already. Some have woken up and are now monitoring other services. These will be the ones that will win out in the end. Many are just relying on contract tows with insurance companies as well, which will keep then going regardless.

my 2c worth again.
 

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Dave,

I used to shoot news back before 9/11. Yes, the FD is a big source but many times critical details are omitted on those channels. It's those critical details that determine whether a particular call is a "go", "no-go" or "OMFG GET THERE NOW" call.

Case in point: Injury accident goes out on the FD channel. Well whoopty doo, those happen 6,000 times a day. Pass right? Here's what you don't know - the driver of the car that caused the wreck carjacked his vehicle at gunpoint after cops tried to arrest him for robbing a bank and the crash happened as a result of the ensuing chase. That's a not just a go, that's a "BE THERE NOW" but with PD encrypted, no one knows about it until the PIO finally wakes up from his nap and goes "Oh.. hey, maybe the media might want to know about this."

Maybe an assault call goes out on FD. ZZZZZZZZ, wake me up when there's some news right? Wrong - the "assaultee" is a cop who got the snot beat out of him by a local football star. Sure, the media will be alerted when the PIO finally stops scratching his backside long enough to email it out, but if you shoot freelance like I did you don't get paid for reading the PIO's email long after the fact - you get paid for being there and shooting the video of the local football celebrity being cuffed and stuffed in the squad car before anyone else in the media even knew he was being arrested. Those are the guys who are "stuffed" because of this. Many times freelancers like me don't assimilate well into today's newsrooms either - they pay too little and send you out on absolute boring crap.

-AZ
 

SCPD

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Again its very different here in Sydney Australia. Sure you won't hear the fire brigade ( as wel call them here ) go on much about a guy with a gun or the condition of a patient. Because thats not their job. We have a seperate ambulance service here, who, most of the time, are the first service to show up. They are first to show up because our police are so backlogged they take ages to get anywhere, even if its some guy with a gun. But in the example you stated, if the ambulance turn up, they will hold off if an offender has a gun. They will then put it over the radio to inform the dispatch to alert the police, who will then priobably make more of an effort to attend quicker. They will hold off, but this info has already gone over the air, where the media catch it without the need to listen to the police. Probably at this stage the police don;t even know its a car jacker who is armed. Like I said, its very different over here. We don't have combined services like in the US. Each service is seperate. Here in NSW we have police, fire, RFS (bush fire) SES (state emergency service) Ambulance, VRA ( volunteer Rescue Service ) just to name a few. All seperate with seperate radios they talk on.

Again, different services, run differently in different countries. I have seen probably the one and only documentary on US stringers, and compared to Australia, its very different in a lot of ways. The newsrooms in Sydney don't have the same huge budgets as you guys in the US. Remember we have only 3 major commercial stations in the whole of Australia. There are a couple of small ones, and of course the government one, andf thats about it. You very very rarely see them chase a police pursuit with a helicopter like what just about happens every week in the US, in fact, I have only ever seen in once in well over 20 years. Helicopters are very expensive to run over here. The news rooms over here rely on stringers for a lot of their footage and news. In fact, the stations even send their journalists out with stringers who are contracted for jobs. I know I have tagged along a number of times in the past. Their own TV crews are reserved for duties that they can plan ahead on and send them out to. The stringers get all the othe stuff over here. The good ones work well with the news rooms, and its hard for new comers to get into the ball game.

Again, very different from the US the way it is. Like I said, I know a couple of stringers here in Sydney, and neither of them are at all bothered much by the police going encrypted. Sure it is a minor bother, but to them, getting work from the police services was not their bread winner anyway, so they are not worried one bit. There are many other ways to get the details and sure, some stuff you won't get because it is only crime related. But thats tough. It doesn't go to news because the media don't find out in time. Our news seems to be more worried about the antics of members of parliment lately.
Personally, I think it's wrong, and that the public has a right to know about things to a degree, and that the police, in general, should be accountable to some degree. For this reason I beleive they should not be allowed to encrypt full time. But this is Australia. No 15 in the western world for government secrecy and of freedom of information. Even the US beats us at this, i mean, its not hard to find out someone drivers details in the US, but try that over here if your not a member of law enforcement, or a P.I. Its almost impossible under the strict privacey laws we have. Even I had little trouble years ago tracking down an old friend who was in the US for my father that he had not talked to for a good 40 years. Try that over here online. Good luck!
Thats why the police and in other states and territories other services have gone encrypted. Because our laws state that information that is out in the public domain should be made private, and its the responcibility of the persons who hold this information to do so. This means they can't ban our scanners, but they have to encrypt if they want to meet Australian privacey laws. In fact, the Australian Capital Territoy, where our nations capital is, Canberra, encrypted their system all because of an online scanner stream. And this was after their laywers tried to shut it down, but could not. And these were federal laywers, not state, and it ended up costing them a packet of tax payer dollars to do so.

The news and scanning scene is very different from what I can tell to the US. Much more of a market there, which means stiffer competition for of course, much more news. You have 260million people, we have 22 million. We only get the scanners you get in the US, and then not all of them because there simply is not the market here for them.
 

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Thanks Dave, that was quite helpful info. Things are VERY different here, if PD went encrypted here the only stringers that would keep working would be the firebuff types that don't listen to PD anyway.

Kinda wish I could afford to take the trip out there sometime. I'd love to meet up with the local stringers out there and just tag along for a day. :)

-AZ
 

grant

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Just a few comments to what Dave said

Firstly the big issue with privacy stems historically out of the fact that many of our ancestors didn't want their past being dragged up. Convict transportation continued until 1867 and at the beginning of the 20th century there were still folk alive here who had formerly been guests of his/her majesty's prisons and transported here. Unlike now where people can discuss and be proud of their convict ancestory, a 100 years ago it was considered a stain on the family background. We have a tradition of destroying our census records (ie so that personal details can't be traced) once the Government has processed the essential data out of it

Secondly I would actually think it is the Fire Brigade who are first on scene.
In Sydney there is a fire station in every suburb whereas the primary care service (Ambulance) are based in depots which cover 4-6 suburbs
In fact the NSWFB have been equipped with some first response items like oxygen revivers etc

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23727838-5006784,00.html.

When you listen to the ambulance service, the channel dispatchers using GPS are continually moving vehicles around over a geographical area and across adjacent channels to maintain adequate coverage and response. Despite more vehicles on the road (just about everybody is qualified to paramedic level), the response times have suffered, largely due to delays in the hospital system (hospital bed availability is coded green, orange or red ... frequently the last two) and traffic snarls and gridlock.

Once has to bear in mind that in New South Wales politics is played at a very personal level (the nsw parliament is known as the bearpit) and consequently the level of media scrutiny is and has always been intense. This extends to the agencies under ministerial control eg health, transport, education. Consequently government agencies like the Ambulance Service are acutely aware that they are being monitored over the GRN by the media and would prefer the lack of scrutiny that an encrypted voice and mdt network brings.

By the way our Education Minister just got suspended from his portfolio yesterday after a week of police and media scutiny resulting from an altercation at a nightclub north of Sydney.

Grant
 
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richardc63

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Sydney Australia
Just a few comments to what Dave said

Firstly the big issue with privacy stems historically out of the fact that many of our ancestors didn't want their past being dragged up. Convict transportation continued until 1867 and at the beginning of the 20th century there were still folk alive here who had formerly been guests of his/her majesty's prisons and transported here. Unlike now where people can discuss and be proud of their convict ancestory, a 100 years ago it was considered a stain on the family background. We have a tradition of destroying our census records (ie so that personal details can't be traced) once the Government has processed the essential data out of it

Secondly I would actually think it is the Fire Brigade who are first on scene.
In Sydney there is a fire station in every suburb whereas the primary care service (Ambulance) are based in depots which cover 4-6 suburbs
In fact the NSWFB have been equipped with some first response items like oxygen revivers etc

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23727838-5006784,00.html.

When you listen to the ambulance service, the channel dispatchers using GPS are continually moving vehicles around over a geographical area and across adjacent channels to maintain adequate coverage and response. Despite more vehicles on the road (just about everybody is qualified to paramedic level), the response times have suffered, largely due to delays in the hospital system (hospital bed availability is coded green, orange or red ... frequently the last two) and traffic snarls and gridlock.

Once has to bear in mind that in New South Wales politics is played at a very personal level (the nsw parliament is known as the bearpit) and consequently the level of media scrutiny is and has always been intense. This extends to the agencies under ministerial control eg health, transport, education. Consequently government agencies like the Ambulance Service are acutely aware that they are being monitored over the GRN by the media and would prefer the lack of scrutiny that an encrypted voice and mdt network brings.

By the way our Education Minister just got suspended from his portfolio yesterday after a week of police and media scutiny resulting from an altercation at a nightclub north of Sydney.

Grant


Hi Grant,

I think you guys are going way over board trying trying to analyse why public service networks are heading in the direction they are.

The reasons are rarely this deep.

In short we are steered in the direction that the manufacturing industry lead us. In Australia at least not even the public sector has the commercial clout to significantly influence manufacturers. The evolution from analogue PMR to analogue trunking, and now to digital PMR and digital trunking has been lead by overseas trends and not Australian factors. Police overseas have sought privacy, and Australian police have not bucked the trend. Most other services, including fire and ambulance have never (in my experience) been philosophically driven- they've just sought the best available system/technology that manufacturers have offered and which government were willing to pay for. The other issue, common to the US, has been the availability of spectrum.

That is the reality... and it has diddly squat to do with anything else (including loud mouthed MPs getting caught out).

Cheers,


Richard
 
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