ARMER Programming advice

[Finnesotan]

ARMER Programming advice on Unication G4

Does anyone have any advice for the best approach to programming the Unication G4 (same programming as G5 I believe) for the ARMER system in Anoka County area? There seems to be multiple methods from what I've been able to research, most involving including multiple of the most active talkgroups or instead having the unit scan for any active talkgroup not necessarily programmed. This is assuming control channels are entered before-hand of course. I have a G4 on the way and working on programming so any advice would be appreciated as I continue to search.

BTW new member here but have been 'lurking' on the forums for awhile and currently using Pro-96 and HP-2 which don't deal with LSM well as many are aware.

 

[KevinC]

I moved your question to its own thread for better visibility.

 

[troymail]

Does anyone have any advice for the best approach to programming the Unication G4 (same programming as G5 I believe) for the ARMER system in Anoka County area? There seems to be multiple methods from what I've been able to research, most involving including multiple of the most active talkgroups or instead having the unit scan for any active talkgroup not necessarily programmed. This is assuming control channels are entered before-hand of course. I have a G4 on the way and working on programming so any advice would be appreciated as I continue to search.

BTW new member here but have been 'lurking' on the forums for awhile and currently using Pro-96 and HP-2 which don't deal with LSM well as many are aware.

Most likely, it depends on what you want to listen to.

You can put up to 64 talkgroups in a scanlist but there is no hold so if you have even a couple of busy talkgroups, this can be a problem.

I'm obviously not in your area but for me, I create several knobs for my county system - one is "everything" (all talkgroups), one is fire/ems, one is law and then I have a few knobs for specific talkgroups. That way, if you hear something and want to hold on that talkgroup, you can switch to the zone/knob position for that single talkgroup (or small number of talkgroups).

The biggest challenge is remembering which zone/knob has the talkgroup(s) you are wanting to hear at any given time. You can label the zones and knobs but you still need to remember where things are to some degree.

I've had my G4 (now G5) for a almost a year and am constantly making new configurations - mostly for when I travel (that's a whole 'nuther degree of pain). However, I still play with different creation of groupings for home/local use all the time....

 

[Finnesotan]

Most likely, it depends on what you want to listen to.

You can put up to 64 talkgroups in a scanlist but there is no hold so if you have even a couple of busy talkgroups, this can be a problem.

I'm obviously not in your area but for me, I create several knobs for my county system - one is "everything" (all talkgroups), one is fire/ems, one is law and then I have a few knobs for specific talkgroups. That way, if you hear something and want to hold on that talkgroup, you can switch to the zone/knob position for that single talkgroup (or small number of talkgroups).

The biggest challenge is remembering which zone/knob has the talkgroup(s) you are wanting to hear at any given time. You can label the zones and knobs but you still need to remember where things are to some degree.

I've had my G4 (now G5) for a almost a year and am constantly making new configurations - mostly for when I travel (that's a whole 'nuther degree of pain). However, I still play with different creation of groupings for home/local use all the time....

Thanks for the info. Mainly looking to listen to public safety etc. on the simulcast portion of the system here. Many adjacent counties/towers are involved so it is a challenge to decode on a typical scanner.

I'm still a bit confused how to scan everything (if even possible) on one knob config as our system has several hundred talkgroups within the metro and well over 64 in a single county for public safety etc. Can the unit be setup to pickup on any talkgroup with only control channels programmed for one of the knob configs? Is there any word on implementation hold/delay feature that you are aware?

 

[ScanWI]

I have mine set up multiple ways, during the week I usually have the pager only listen to programmed talkgroups. On the weekends I sometimes open it up to listen to everything. You can program it normally with your chosen talkgroups and then in the menu put it into monitor mode.

The Anoka Simulcast site carries a lot of non-public safety traffic on the site that I don't care to listen too, transit buses, public works, general chitchat of officers. This is why I choose when I want to monitor everything.

 

[troymail]

I'm still a bit confused how to scan everything (if even possible) on one knob config as our system has several hundred talkgroups within the metro and well over 64 in a single county for public safety etc. Can the unit be setup to pickup on any talkgroup with only control channels programmed for one of the knob configs? Is there any word on implementation hold/delay feature that you are aware?

You really won't want to try and monitor the maximum 64 talkgroups in a single knob position - unless those talkgroups are normally very quiet (example - talkgroups used for large incidents like structure fires, etc.). If the talkgroups are "routine" - particularly law enforcement/police districts, etc., it could be hard to follow because the radio will constantly be talking and rotating to the next talkgroup (there is no PAUSE or DELAY).

As with most products, folks are asking for features - which is fine. However, Unication isn't commenting on or committing to any of those changes (other than Phase 2 that should be here very soon). If you make the purchase, you should not expect any changes in the product - not that there won't be - you just don't want to be frustrated as an owner because you feel they aren't listening to your requests. I don't buy a car and then expect the manufacturer to add something later. Just because radios have firmware that can be changed doesn't mean it can or will be - for lots of reasons.

I wrote this a while back:
https://forums.radioreference.com/maryland-radio-discussion-forum/364176-g5-reviews.html#post2865314

 

[Finnesotan]

Thanks for the info/advice.

 

[Finnesotan]

I did receive the G4 and was able to get it setup with the PPS with minimal hassle. I ended up adding a select number of Talkgroups of interest per knob setting which works well.

The unit works very well overall on the Anoka County Simulcast system.

I'm still trying to determine when there is a benefit (requirement?) to entering all frequencies for a P25 Trunked system vs. just the Control/alternate channel and/or if it is system/signal dependent. Could not find a clear answer thus far; if anyone can clarify or provide a link with more info, that would helpful.

 

[troymail]

I'm still trying to determine when there is a benefit (requirement?) to entering all frequencies for a P25 Trunked system vs. just the Control/alternate channel and/or if it is system/signal dependent. Could not find a clear answer thus far; if anyone can clarify or provide a link with more info, that would helpful.

At absolute minimum/most, you only need to program the active CC frequency for any given site.

For most systems, the best choice is to enter at least the known primary and alternate control channel frequencies for the site. However, keep in mind that the information in the RRDB is mostly "user observed and submitted" which means it isn't guaranteed to be fully accurate or fully complete. Additionally, some systems (companies) configure their systems such that any frequency can be a control channel ant any time.

To extend/elaborate further, I recently returned from a trip and submitted "additional" unlisted frequencies for some systems.

For the Unication, I'd enter all of them.

Bottom line is that unless you are in a public safety position where you can't afford to miss anything, if things go quiet and/or something changes, you can always go back and make updates (but in this case that requires a computer - unless you're using Full Spectrum Scan vs. specific frequencies.)

 

[ScanWI]

Let's Slow down a Minute

Let's answer why we only need the control channels.

Each site has a number of possible control channels, for any reason anyone of the chosen channels can switch. Every system is different, some change daily, some only change if there is a issue.

A P25 trunking system gives the radio/scanner/pager all the frequency information out over the air, so you only need to have the primary and alternate control channels for each site.

When a user keys up, the control channel spits out the frequency/Channel Number and the talkgroup that is going to be on that frequency. The Unication pager and most digital scanners use this information to follow the frequencies. This is why you don't need to program the non-control channels.

 

[troymail]

This is why you don't need to program the non-control channels.

...unless for some reason the RRDB information isn't complete and/or changes (without notice)...

There is no harm in entering all of the frequencies.

The IS potential harm is you don't.

 

[ScanWI]

...unless for some reason the RRDB information isn't complete and/or changes (without notice)...

There is no harm in entering all of the frequencies.

The IS potential harm is you don't.

Feel free to answer people's questions but we don't need to post just to post.

What you are failing to understand is the G4/5 learns the system, if it loses the control channel it will go to an adjacent control channel. That site will then tell the G5/4 the control channel of the missing site. This how P25 works, and it works very well.

Finnesotan

If you are worried about not catching all the control channels, you can enable Band Scan on the system on your G4/5.


Feel free to PM me, I can email you my load for the Anoka/Isanti area that you could work off.

 

[ScanWI]

Here are the screen shots that did not attach the first time.

 

[troymail]

Feel free to answer people's questions but we don't need to post just to post.

What you are failing to understand is the G4/5 learns the system, if it loses the control channel it will go to an adjacent control channel. That site will then tell the G5/4 the control channel of the missing site. This how P25 works, and it works very well.

Finnesotan

If you are worried about not catching all the control channels, you can enable Band Scan on the system on your G4/5.


Feel free to PM me, I can email you my load for the Anoka/Isanti area that you could work off.

I'm glad you edited and removed this comment as is was totally uncalled for:

"Please stop trolling our forum, he asked why you would or wouldn't I answered that question. Feel free to answer people's questions but we don't need to post just to post.
"

I'm am not trolling - I was not aware you owned a forum - and I did provide what I believe is a pretty comprehensive answer.

EDIT: Offered as an example:
https://forums.radioreference.com/unication-forum/366969-g5-programming-question.html

 

[Finnesotan]

Thanks again to those that have replied (troymail & ScanWI) with both constructive and comprehensive feedback thus far.

I'm just trying to understand how the system (mainly ARMER) works overall with the channels and G4 etc. as it's a hobby (challenge) to monitor; not in a public safety position here, just an engineering background.

Maybe the info here can help others wondering as well.

ScanWI - I will shoot you a PM.

 

[troymail]

I contacted Unication to hear directly from them on this subject - this was the response:

If full spectrum scan is disabled the unit will only use the control channels from that list. If full-spectrum scan is enabled the unit will scan through its internal list first and once it reaches the end of that list it begins scanning through full spectrum scan after about 30 seconds the unit checks back to the control Channel it lost and scans through the internal list and then Begins full spectrum scan again at the point in which it left off. ​

Although the original question about site frequencies wasn't about Full Spectrum Scan (FSS), I was aware that you could that it is an option (as mentioned in the thread I referenced in my previous post) . I did learn from this that the Gx will still use the list of possible control channel frequencies even when FSS is enabled.

While this will work, depending upon how many and how large the scan ranges are that you program (including considering the step size), I'm fairly certain that doing it this way would be much less efficient (slower) in restoring reception during the "search" for the frequency than having the frequency/frequencies already in the control channel frequency list.

We're always learning.

 

[ScanWI]

I contacted Unication to hear directly from them on this subject - this was the response:

If full spectrum scan is disabled the unit will only use the control channels from that list. If full-spectrum scan is enabled the unit will scan through its internal list first and once it reaches the end of that list it begins scanning through full spectrum scan after about 30 seconds the unit checks back to the control Channel it lost and scans through the internal list and then Begins full spectrum scan again at the point in which it left off. ​

We're always learning.

While this is true this is only a partial answer. Upon startup this is how the Gx will operate, however once a site is acquired it starts a whole new scan and ignores the control channel list unless it loses the system. Once on the system, the Gx will automatically choose the best site based on RSSI. It will use the site's adjacent site list to do this. It does not save this information to the pager and will have to redo this operation upon restart. If you are using site numbers instead of FF/FF the pager will not roam beyond any site numbers not in the list.

Ramsey county has several other site covering it. There is a state overlay as well as strong neighboring sites.

 

[troymail]

While this is true this is only a partial answer. Upon startup this is how the Gx will operate, however once a site is acquired it starts a whole new scan and ignores the control channel list unless it loses the system. Once on the system, the Gx will automatically choose the best site based on RSSI. It will use the site's adjacent site list to do this. It does not save this information to the pager and will have to redo this operation upon restart. If you are using site numbers instead of FF/FF the pager will not roam beyond any site numbers not in the list.

Ramsey county has several other site covering it. There is a state overlay as well as strong neighboring sites.

I agree with most of what you have said except possibly this:

"It will use the site's adjacent site list to do this"​

This could be interpreted in a couple of different ways:

• the radio will use the other site information that is programmed in the profile to find a different/better site if needed (I agree)

or
​

• the radio will gather the neighbor site information from the control channel and find a better site/control channel (if required) even if that information is not programmed in the profile

Note: at one time, I thought I heard that stated somewhere else but it still isn't clear to me that this actually happens - in fact, there are cases where I would NOT want this to happen - for example, if I define a single site of a multi-site system as a stand-alone system (which I do all the time), I am explicitly NOT wanting the radio to choose some other site for me so I don't want it using "neighbor" data to switch to a different site.​

All of this is dependent upon how the radio is programmed. There are many various options including wildcards and Full Spectrum Scan - if you use them.

Having said that, the original question was essentially - what are the pros and cons of programming only the control channel frequencies. The bottom line is that there are many options and ways to program the radio and some "internal" workings are still somewhat of a mystery.

 

[ScanWI]

I agree with most of what you have said except possibly this:

"It will use the site's adjacent site list to do this"​

This could be interpreted in a couple of different ways:

• the radio will use the other site information that is programmed in the profile to find a different/better site if needed (I agree)
  

or

​

• the radio will gather the neighbor site information from the control channel and find a better site/control channel (if required) even if that information is not programmed in the profile
  

Again the radio will learn the system as it goes, I do this for a living. Testing radios on P25 systems is what I do. This is how it works, the only way to keep it from doing this is put a actual site number list in as stated in my response.

Once the pager acquires a site it ignores the CC list until it loses the system and can’t find an adjacent site. Then it searches the CC list and then Band scan if enabled.




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[ScanWI]

Again the radio will learn the system as it goes, I do this for a living. Testing radios on P25 systems is what I do. This is how it works, the only way to keep it from doing this is put a actual site number list in as stated in my response.

Once the pager acquires a site it ignores the CC list until it loses the system and can’t find an adjacent site. Then it searches the CC list and then Band scan if enabled.




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The idea is you could put one CC in at then travel the state, it works and it works well. This is exactly how P25 radios work.


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