I'm mainly interested in Kenwood radios and wondering if any do Auto Slot Select on a simplex channel? My NX5300 does NOT support this except in repeater mode (TX & RX freqs must be different). Anytone allows split TS and Dual TS (presumably including simplex?) and Hytera pre lawsuit seemed to. Side note- DSCM and Non DSCM not compatible in either direction; you would think a non DSCM receiver would lock onto a DSDM signal because it's the only signal there and actual TS would be irrelevant to non DSDM receiver. It would make sense that the non DSDM could not talk back to the DSDM receiver since it is looking for a timing signal and specific TS.
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Auto Slot select in Simplex?
- Thread starter otobmark
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I have some NX-1300DUK's running the auto slot select on some simplex channels. Works fine.
Never tried it with the NX-3300's.
Never tried it with the NX-3300's.
Good to know, my version of D6 isn't exactly up to date so I went off what I had.
Auto slot is NOT available on the NX-1300DUK radios using simplex frequencies. The only option that is available via KPG-D6N is
Dual Slot Direct Mode.
Dual Slot Direct Mode allows you to configure which version of DMR Direct Mode (a newer version or earlier version) is used for communications when the transceiver communicates in DMR Direct Mode.
Range:
Check (Enable):
The transceiver communicates using a newer version of DMR Direct Mode.
Using a newer version of DMR Direct Mode, calls cannot be made if the slot number is different, even for channels configured with the same frequency. If the slot number matches, calls can be made.
Uncheck (Disable):
The transceiver communicates using an earlier version of DMR Direct Mode.
Using an earlier version of DMR Direct Mode, calls can be made even if the slot number is different for channels configured with the same frequency.
Default:
Checked (Enabled)
Dual Slot Direct Mode.
Dual Slot Direct Mode allows you to configure which version of DMR Direct Mode (a newer version or earlier version) is used for communications when the transceiver communicates in DMR Direct Mode.
Range:
Check (Enable):
The transceiver communicates using a newer version of DMR Direct Mode.
Using a newer version of DMR Direct Mode, calls cannot be made if the slot number is different, even for channels configured with the same frequency. If the slot number matches, calls can be made.
Uncheck (Disable):
The transceiver communicates using an earlier version of DMR Direct Mode.
Using an earlier version of DMR Direct Mode, calls can be made even if the slot number is different for channels configured with the same frequency.
Default:
Checked (Enabled)
Auto-slot is a repeater option for Kenwood and motorola's, HYT calls it "pseudo-trunk". It's a repeater thing, so it can't be used on simplex for any brand.
Kenwood has "dual-slot direct mode" that is similar, but not the same. Motorola has a version that can be made to be compatible with it, but some of the parameters are a bit buried.
Kenwood has "dual-slot direct mode" that is similar, but not the same. Motorola has a version that can be made to be compatible with it, but some of the parameters are a bit buried.
My SFR project is taking a beating! My HOPE was that with Auto Slot (DSDM) on a simplex channel I could use a bi-directional SFR (can go TS-1 to TS-2 or TS-2 to TS-1) and have a solution that can work direct or through SFR. Subscriber doesn’t care if it copies direct (if available) or through SFR. If receiver is in range of both it will pick one randomly due to auto select. Regardless the SFR will repeat anything it hears on opposite TS for all subscribers not in direct range. I’m not sure I can find a “good” SFR radio that works bi-directional TS. My Anytone will do that but I’m pretty sure it desenses itself.
The more proprietary SFR solutions (split TS) do not allow for direct—you only hear SFR repeater.
My present work around is a 2 channel scan list in each subscriber—both channels are identical EXCEPT one is TS-1 and the other TS-2 in DSDM mode. I don’t really need bi-directional SFR when setting selected channel TX instead of talk-back. RX transcribers are scanning both TS’s so will be able to hear either direct (if close enough) or SFR repeater.
To confuse things more Task Force guys put up a tethered drone with a Hytera SFR radio and talked through it with NX1300 radios in NON-DSDM mode, and as mentioned above no Auto was available (which would require DSDM anyway). I wasn’t there to see this but they say it worked fine. I don’t know how it worked, or if they experienced any direct RX, or Direct and SFR simultaneously. I don’t trust the result as being robust.
It suggests that they Hytera is copying non DSDM traffic and syncing it’s outgoing signal to it. Wouldn’t matter if officially TS 1 or 2 just as long as opposite.
The more proprietary SFR solutions (split TS) do not allow for direct—you only hear SFR repeater.
My present work around is a 2 channel scan list in each subscriber—both channels are identical EXCEPT one is TS-1 and the other TS-2 in DSDM mode. I don’t really need bi-directional SFR when setting selected channel TX instead of talk-back. RX transcribers are scanning both TS’s so will be able to hear either direct (if close enough) or SFR repeater.
To confuse things more Task Force guys put up a tethered drone with a Hytera SFR radio and talked through it with NX1300 radios in NON-DSDM mode, and as mentioned above no Auto was available (which would require DSDM anyway). I wasn’t there to see this but they say it worked fine. I don’t know how it worked, or if they experienced any direct RX, or Direct and SFR simultaneously. I don’t trust the result as being robust.
It suggests that they Hytera is copying non DSDM traffic and syncing it’s outgoing signal to it. Wouldn’t matter if officially TS 1 or 2 just as long as opposite.
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Yep, I was wrong. I don't work with DMR often and was running on memory.
These guys are right:
I am running the dual slot direct mode and it works well. But not what you are looking for.
These guys are right:
I am running the dual slot direct mode and it works well. But not what you are looking for.
Single Frequency Repeater. Receives on one timeslot and repeats on the other timeslot.
lucasec
Member
I happened to dig into the auto slot select documentation for the NX-5000 series over the weekend, and it does not work on simplex. This doc is pretty clear about that. In D1N, if transmit frequency == receive frequency, the "Auto" option also disappears from the "Slot" dropdown.
Why exactly it's disabled, I'm not sure, as it seems like the combination of DSDM + auto-slot on simplex would realize a lot of the same benefits of using auto-slot on a repeater. DSDM allows two concurrent talk paths on simplex and auto-slot would automate two groups of users switching between having separate concurrent calls and talking across groups without having to manually change between the timeslots. Possibly Kenwood tested this and found it unreliable in practice due to the hidden terminal problem or something like that.
Why exactly it's disabled, I'm not sure, as it seems like the combination of DSDM + auto-slot on simplex would realize a lot of the same benefits of using auto-slot on a repeater. DSDM allows two concurrent talk paths on simplex and auto-slot would automate two groups of users switching between having separate concurrent calls and talking across groups without having to manually change between the timeslots. Possibly Kenwood tested this and found it unreliable in practice due to the hidden terminal problem or something like that.
That's because it CAN'T work on simplex. It's a protocol for repeaters. That's it. It's right in the name: dual-slot *direct* mode.
DSDM CAN'T work on repeaters. It's a protocol for simplex. That's it.
The two CANNOT co-exist. Not under any circumstance. It would be like trying to combine DMR and NXDN on the same channel at the same time, same transmission.
I figured you meant Auto Slot doesn’t work direct and DSDM doesn’t work through repeaters. As coded you are right on how my non-Chinese radios work. With different coding (firmware) I theorize DSDM could use auto slot select at the same time. Pseudo Trunking in DSDM. Same benefits as repeater pseudo trunking only in simplex range. If you have lots of radios spread out (without complete overlap) it could create a mess and for that reason would not be a good idea generally but could facilitate SFR.
I was texting today with Task Force guy who successfully used a tethered drone SFR (Hytera) with NX1300 radios. He reiterated that the NX1300’s were Not in DSDM mode (meaning promiscuous to TS). The Hytera was in SFR mode (who the hell knows what it was actually doing?? Timing bit? No timing?).
Now for some speculation:
Even when not in DSDM mode a receiver in this case the SFR, has to lock onto the TDMA packets (every 30ms data spaced between 30ms of silence) and time them so as to be able to TX in the vacant slots. It is not receiving slot specific defined timing bits but simply utilizes the alternating vacant 30 ms spaces to repeat previous incoming packet. Since what was received was not clocked with specific slot assignment what goes out probably isn’t either (my kenwoods do not decode DSDM unless they are also in DSDM mode—this surprised me). The non originating subscribers hear the SFR undefined slot transmission (non DSDM) and lock to the packets the way any non DSDM simplex radio does (beginning of frame bits?) and decode audio. If a radio receives both the SFR & and initiating radio simultaneously I have no idea what happens. Best scenario is it locks onto one and ignores the other—worst you get collisions.
Lots and lots of assumptions made here by me!
I was texting today with Task Force guy who successfully used a tethered drone SFR (Hytera) with NX1300 radios. He reiterated that the NX1300’s were Not in DSDM mode (meaning promiscuous to TS). The Hytera was in SFR mode (who the hell knows what it was actually doing?? Timing bit? No timing?).
Now for some speculation:
Even when not in DSDM mode a receiver in this case the SFR, has to lock onto the TDMA packets (every 30ms data spaced between 30ms of silence) and time them so as to be able to TX in the vacant slots. It is not receiving slot specific defined timing bits but simply utilizes the alternating vacant 30 ms spaces to repeat previous incoming packet. Since what was received was not clocked with specific slot assignment what goes out probably isn’t either (my kenwoods do not decode DSDM unless they are also in DSDM mode—this surprised me). The non originating subscribers hear the SFR undefined slot transmission (non DSDM) and lock to the packets the way any non DSDM simplex radio does (beginning of frame bits?) and decode audio. If a radio receives both the SFR & and initiating radio simultaneously I have no idea what happens. Best scenario is it locks onto one and ignores the other—worst you get collisions.
Lots and lots of assumptions made here by me!
One more time: auto-slot/pseudo-trunk CANNOT be used on simplex. Period. It can't be done. At all. Completely different protocols and theory of operation. Get the idea out of your head.
lucasec
Member
I'm actually with otobmark on this one.
No, I don't think I would call them completely different protocols, at least to the extent of my understanding. Tell me specifically where I am wrong: Auto-slot select is an algorithm that operates on top of the primitive of a single channel offering two talk paths. The primitive must offer (A) the ability to transmit on one of two concurrent talk paths, and (B) the ability to listen on a single frequency and monitor both talk paths simultaneously. A DMR channel in repeater mode offers one such primitive. A DMR channel in DSDM theoretically seems to be able to offer another such primitive.
I wholeheartedly agree that no current radio firmware offers this combination, and we're unlikely to see it anytime soon.
No, I don't think I would call them completely different protocols, at least to the extent of my understanding. Tell me specifically where I am wrong: Auto-slot select is an algorithm that operates on top of the primitive of a single channel offering two talk paths. The primitive must offer (A) the ability to transmit on one of two concurrent talk paths, and (B) the ability to listen on a single frequency and monitor both talk paths simultaneously. A DMR channel in repeater mode offers one such primitive. A DMR channel in DSDM theoretically seems to be able to offer another such primitive.
I wholeheartedly agree that no current radio firmware offers this combination, and we're unlikely to see it anytime soon.
You may be right but you have only declared it as fact, not made an actual argument or experimental evidence. The example I gave of a field experiment by professional Comms team (NC Task Force 6) who have been deployed nationwide including Puerto Rico would argue that the equivalent of Auto slot was occurring. It may relate to capture effect. The SDR repeater (Hytera) is the wild card. As you have correctly argued, SU (subscriber unit) to SU in MSDM (Hytera calls it MCDM) are disciplined by TS (& CC, TG) and will not unmute on a Non MSDM transmission (undefined TS). Is this endemic to DMR or a feature that could be added? My personal SU radios when in Non MSDM will also Not unmute on a MSDM transmission from another SU BUT will unmute on the SDR (Hytera). The SDR also receives and uses the Non MSDM transmissions from the SU's and repeats them on the alternate slot which Does unmute the other SU’s. I DON’T KNOW HOW/WHY THIS WORKS OR HOW RELIABLE BUT IT DOES WORK. If the SDR was to be creating a master timing signal (disciplined TS) synced off in input signal then I’m at a loss as to know why the other SU’s don’t reject the DSDM output of SDR as they would with another SU?
AGAIN, I DON’T KNOW HOW…I’m following the evidence as I find it. The SDR seems to tolerate an undisciplined input (non DSDM) and repeat it in a way that the SU’s which are in non DSCM mode will decode. If I knew why a DSDM radio rejects a Non DSDM and visa versa, it would help.
Glad someone gets “where I’m coming from”. I’m trying to learn, not teach….
I'm done talking to a brick wall.
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