battery backups and our setups

[jwile20vt]

After a few storms knocking out power for some time over the weekend , its becoming pretty reg. that power goes out with big storms here lately.....

wondering what people are using for battery backup units...if annyone is ?

i figure its a obvious useage of a ups instead of putting a computer on one .. i figure you can get an hour of scanner usage on a small ups battery backup if thats all thats plugged into it

 

[gmclam]

Battery backup

I'm not sure I understand your specific question; but here's what I'm using.

I use BELKIN UPSs, one for my home entertainment system and one for my computer lab. They will power the devices plugged into them for about 1 hour each.

I have several scanners as you can see from my tagline below. I ordered some extra yellow battery holders from RS and I maintain several charged NiMH battery packs. These days the PRO-92s just stay at home, but I am routinely using one each PRO-95 & PRO-97 - and they use the same battery packs. This leaves me with at least 2 packs for each scanner (more than 24 hours of operation).

I am using "Digital" brand NiMH batteries which I purchased at WalMart. These are the only 1.25v NiMH batteries I have found. They give me the best life, and I've not had any defective batteries. I have had defective DuraCell 2650s.

 

[wogggieee]

All my scanners are battery powered. My amateur gear is either battery powered or runs off the car. I have a 750 watt power inverter i have for some medical equipment that i got for use on long car trips. But this can also be used if power goes out as well if needed. Otherwise nothing else has battery back up. A nice generator hooked up to the house would be really great, but is cost prohibitive.

 

[drdiesel1]

Buy a used UPS off ebay, I bought an APC 3000 for $175 without batteries. Hit your local Walmart and wire up as many Deep cycle batteries as you need to match the required voltage. I have 4 external batteries wired in with welding cable.

Check out the runtime:

http://www.streamlinemechatronics.com/cgi-bin/multimon.cgi

 

[shaft]

Buy a used UPS off ebay, I bought an APC 3000 for $175 without batteries. Hit your local Walmart and wire up as many Deep cycle batteries as you need to match the required voltage. I have 4 external batteries wired in with welding cable.

Check out the runtime:

http://www.streamlinemechatronics.com/cgi-bin/multimon.cgi

Interesting....

Seriously, dont bother with what was recomended above. If you are going that route, there is no point in even bothering to back up your stuff. Do it right and either purchase a working UPS or dont protect it.

APC is the top of the line when it comes to protection. The down side is they dont always work. I took a hit last week that took out 2 computers, a switch, router, and cable modem. All wired thru my UPS. The up side is that APC claims to cover the equipment. The downfall on this is that it will be a couple month process with the claim. They also do not replace at replacement value, only fair market value. So, Ill get a few bucks for the stuff, but no where near what it will cost to replace.

 

[Bill_White]

Check out the PWRgate by West Mountain Radio:
http://universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/0965.html

 

[drdiesel1]

Interesting....

Seriously, dont bother with what was recomended above. If you are going that route, there is no point in even bothering to back up your stuff. Do it right and either purchase a working UPS or dont protect it.

This method is perfectly fine and no different than APCs own external batteries.

 

[KD4KNR]

There is alot of good information and suggestions at

http://www.eham.net/forums/

Steve

 

[enine]

Easiest is probably to just buy a UPS and plug in there.
Downside is most consumer ups's are the switched or offline type, the online type are more expensive so you don't see them a lot outside of server rooms and medical. Offline means there is a big switch inside the UPS and normally incoming power is just fed striaght through then a minotoring circuit switches the output to the inverter if it detects input voltage above or below a set threshold. So you can get noise and quick spikes through those and some of the real cheap ones don't even have any npise or spike filters so they don't offer much protection. Then remember an inverter is classified as a power supply under the energy star guidelines so unless its 80% or better efficient it doesn't get the energy star logo so your usually loosing >%20 of your power there since I rarely see any with the energy star logo.
I do as someone else stated, I keep a couple spare battery holders and I use low self discharge NiMh cells (Sanyo Eneloop) so they can set for a long time and still have full power. Then I have good NiMh charger which can run from 120 or 12v and all my equipment can be 12v powered. So I've eliminated the need for an inverter. Some ham operators run like this, just feed their house power into a 12v battery then wire their 12v powered radios to the 12v battery.
I'm slowly switching al my cig adapters to power poled then made a couple cig to power pole adapters so I can get power nearly anywhere.

 

[trooperdude]

Battery Power

After a few storms knocking out power for some time over the weekend , its becoming pretty reg. that power goes out with big storms here lately.....

wondering what people are using for battery backup units...if annyone is ?

i figure its a obvious usage of a ups instead of putting a computer on one .. i figure you can get an hour of scanner usage on a small ups battery backup if thats all thats plugged into it

Save the UPS for a desktop computer and short power outages.

UPS are not designed for long run times and the battery capacity is small.

I run my entire shack off of a WestMountain system + MK Absorbed Glass mat
deep cycle batteries (ok to use inside), and a regulated 12vdc power supply.

50 amp 12vdc power supply > Pwr Gate> three AGM batteries in parallel>Rig runner power strips> equipment.

I also have separate system with two solar panels and a charge controller in case power stays down for several days.

I can run my entire shack for 3 days off of the backup power, including the
dsl modem and wireless router, one LCD display, and a laptop w/ 12vdc adapter
without a charge.

Charging is via solar or gas generator in an emergency. The power supply takes
care of charging/maintenance in day-day operations.

AGM Deep Cycle batteries from here: http://www.mkbattery.com/
West Mountain is at: http://www.westmountainradio.com/RIGrunner.htm

YMMV

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi guys,

From the very beginning I've kept things as simple as possible because the more there is the more there is to go wrong. Since the advent of 12V capable scanners (the BC-101 was AC only) I've used the common 7.5AH backup lighting and alarm gel batteries. The old Regency scanners had built in AC supplies with a 12V jack so I plugged the battery in there and the AC supply kept it charged as long as the scanner was plugged in. (The on-off switch was in the internal 12V line.) Now they use wall warts so the battery is across the cord wires, the wart also makes a nice charger. The wind up is the scanner never even knows if the power goes off and can operate a whole lot of hours without the AC mains.

Now here's something that may be of interest. The wall wart 12V current rating (usually about 300mA or 0.3A) will give you some idea about the scanner's current consumption rate. In this example assuming a new, fully charged battery divide the capacity in ampere-hours by the current drain in amperes and you get the time the scanner will operate before the battery voltage falls off too far, 7.5/.3=25 hours. The wall wart is usually rated a bit above the scanner giving it some head room so the battery may last a bit longer but not much and don't forget the battery capacity diminishes with age and the number of charge-discharge cycles.

One last thing, the panel lamps and audio output stage draw the most power so by dimming or switching off the lamps and keeping volume low the battery will last longer. This is important to remember in a situation where power may be out for an extended period. Eh, a few spare batteries wouldn't hurt.

This has been a public service message for the power wasters trying to make up the difference with brute force. (;->)

 

[wogggieee]

Since Warren brought up the topic of battery conservation by keeping volume low, brings me to a related topic that i;ve been wondering about for a while. Will using a external speaker, powered or unpowered reduce batter consumption? I would guess a unpowered one wouldn't reduce consumption, but i would think a powered one might if you have the scanner volume low. Also what about using headphones?

 

[shaft]

This method is perfectly fine and no different than APCs own external batteries.

Umm its quite a bit different...

 

[slicerwizard]

Will using a external speaker, powered or unpowered reduce batter consumption? I would guess a unpowered one wouldn't reduce consumption, but i would think a powered one might if you have the scanner volume low. Also what about using headphones?

An external speaker is generally more efficient than the tiny ones found in handhelds, so one can usually run these scanners with the volume turned down somewhat and still get the same audio levels.

Earphones draw the least power.

The power saving aren't that significant compared to the main loads (micro, RF and AF circuits)

 

[drdiesel1]

Umm its quite a bit different...

uh, how? Many APC have an external battery connector, mine does, and the external battery has a daisy chain connector. My APC firmware has a counter for the number of attatched external battery packs? An Authorized APC dealer installed wet cell Floor scrubber batteries in our facility 4 years ago in a custom built chassis?

Please quit discourging others by your lack of knowledge...This method, done correctly, is 100% perfectly acceptable and MUCH cheaper than commercial offerings.

 

[shaft]

uh, how? Many APC have an external battery connector, mine does, and the external battery has a daisy chain connector. My APC firmware has a counter for the number of attatched external battery packs? An Authorized APC dealer installed wet cell Floor scrubber batteries in our facility 4 years ago in a custom built chassis?

Please quit discourging others by your lack of knowledge...This method, done correctly, is 100% perfectly acceptable and MUCH cheaper than commercial offerings.

So how do you have your external batteries setup? Are they in a seperate ventalated room? What if one or more fails, over heats, or possibly explodes? What protections have you taken to prevent exposure from batteries when/if they fail?

Comparing your home jerry rigged set up to a commercial battery plant is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari.

You may know what you are doing, but a lot of people do not. Since you can pick up a decent UPS system cheaply, no need to jerry rig a bunch of batteries together.

 

[trooperdude]

uh, how? Many APC have an external battery connector, mine does, and the external battery has a daisy chain connector. My APC firmware has a counter for the number of attatched external battery packs? An Authorized APC dealer installed wet cell Floor scrubber batteries in our facility 4 years ago in a custom built chassis?

Please quit discourging others by your lack of knowledge...This method, done correctly, is 100% perfectly acceptable and MUCH cheaper than commercial offerings.

It's different because it's highly inefficient.

Let's take a simple desktop UPS as an example:
You are first converting 110vac to 24 or 48vdc and storing that energy, then you are converting it back to 110vac with a modified sine-wave inverter, and then if your
scanners don't operate directly on 110vac, you are then again converting the energy
back to 12vdc with a wall cube.

AGM batteries are sealed, require no venting, and can be mounted horizontally.

A simple home setup could be made (PROFESSIONALLY ASSEMBLED, not jury rigged) without the inherent inefficiencies in a UPS, for about the same cost.

If you are powering computers in a data center or on your desk, then UPS are great. If you want to run your scanners then direct 110vac to 12vdc conversion with appropriate battery storage is much more desirable.

YMMV

 

[drdiesel1]

So how do you have your external batteries setup? Are they in a seperate ventalated room? What if one or more fails, over heats, or possibly explodes? What protections have you taken to prevent exposure from batteries when/if they fail?

Comparing your home jerry rigged set up to a commercial battery plant is like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari.

You may know what you are doing, but a lot of people do not. Since you can pick up a decent UPS system cheaply, no need to jerry rig a bunch of batteries together.

As I did stated; Done properly.

My setup is NOT jerry rigged, please don't assume this.

All Deep Cycle batteries at Wally World are Sealed/AGM batteries, no venting is required. In my examble, my APC 3000 has (4) 12v batteries internal, these are also Sealed/AGM batteries, exactly the same as the ones that come from APC. The only protection (and the only one needed) is an inline fuse, this is a series configuration.

 

[drdiesel1]

It's different because it's highly inefficient.

Let's take a simple desktop UPS as an example:
You are first converting 110vac to 24 or 48vdc and storing that energy, then you are converting it back to 110vac with a modified sine-wave inverter, and then if your
scanners don't operate directly on 110vac, you are then again converting the energy
back to 12vdc with a wall cube.

Keep in mind, you only have this problem while running on batteries. Otherwise your connected to utility power in most UPS cases.

Inefficiency is fairly relative:

The majority of us probably have computers right next to our scanners, why have two seperate backups? Two seperate batteries to replace etc.

The normal charged voltage of a 12v battery is only ~12.6 volts, many HAM amps/radios require almost 14v to operate at full output. (although this is fairly minimal)

I'm willing to bet many that would use the "more efficient" standard 12v battery, wouldn't keep it charged properly and calcify the plates. Also, almost all battery chargers are switching type, probably a 20% loss.

When my power goes out (which happens ALL THE TIME), I still have lights, my computer, my ethernet switches, DSL modem, HAM radio etc. All in one cozy system!

But to answer the origional question, powing one single scanner? I'd recommend a cheap UPS that can be had for < $100 would likely last him hours with 0 hassle.

Inefficient? In this case, on a scanner that only pulls .3a at 12v, which is 3.6 watts/hour at a 20% hit? This costs him .72watts per hour, or $0.0000648 per hour at $0.09 per KW/hour.

 

[trooperdude]

Keep in mind, you only have this problem while running on batteries. Otherwise your connected to utility power in most UPS cases.

In most cases, but then in the case where you WANT to use the UPS, it's not connected to utility power by definition. ie: backup power

The majority of us probably have computers right next to our scanners, why have two seperate backups? Two seperate batteries to replace etc.

I don't.

My laptop runs off of a 12vdc converter. The desktops off of an inverter. The flat
screen directly off of 12vdc.

The normal charged voltage of a 12v battery is only ~12.6 volts, many HAM amps/radios require almost 14v to operate at full output.

13.8vdc is spec. Same with scanners, but most will operate down to 11 volts without
significant impact. Yes I have tried it.

I'm willing to bet many that would use the "more efficient" standard 12v battery, wouldn't keep it charged properly and calcify the plates. Also, almost all battery chargers are switching type, probably a 20% loss.

Don't take that bet. We're not talking a "standard 12v wet battery" in this discussion.

We were discussing AGM deep cycle sealed batteries which by design solve
the calcification problem, and a power supply trickle charging the batteries until they are needed, not an el-cheapo battery charger.

When my power goes out (which happens ALL THE TIME), I still have lights, my computer, my ethernet switches, DSL modem, HAM radio etc. All in one cozy system!

So do I, with a substantially greater standby capacity and no multi-conversion hassles.

I also have pure 12vdc power, and not a stepped modified 110vac sinewave.

But to answer the origional question, powing one single scanner? I'd recommend a cheap UPS that can be had for < $100 would likely last him hours with 0 hassle.

I'd recommend a hand-held scanner and a brick of Costco AA batteries.

Inefficient? In this case, on a scanner that only pulls .3a at 12v, which is 3.6 watts/hour at a 20% hit? This costs him .72watts per hour, or $0.0000648 per hour at $0.09 per KW/hour.

It's irrelevant what the scanner draws. It's relavant what the phantom power draw of the UPS is.

It's even more of an impact when it's not pulling from the AC mains, and has conversion losses using battery power to convert DC to AC to DC when using it in an emergency off-grid.

So dispensing with the mental mast%*$tion.....

There you have it in summary.

Bottom line is do what fits your knowledge level and $$$ budget.

For a single scanner, the el-cheapo UPS is probably the answer.