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best frequencies to use with Baofengs?

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justinm001

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I have another question. In an emergency situation (zombie apocalypse, whatever) what would be the best and strongest powered handheld unit 2 people could use to reach eachother or anyone else? Without any legality issues and only using mobile power.
 

ke6gcv

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+1 for getting your Amateur Radio license. +1 for the PLB (though I don't own one).

Get your license! Then go and get one of these, FT-857d, HF/6M/2M/70CM Mobile. You'll keep in touch with your group and have HF to "reach out and touch someone" should you be faced with an emergency.

Its been said over, and over, and over again in this forum and in other forums on this site. NEVER BROADCAST ON ANY FORM OF PUBLIC SAFETY FREQUENCY!!! Park rangers, law enforcement, fire, or other. Though you'll be saved, the ramifications after make it not worth it.

Plan ahead! Know where you're going. Tell others your plans; when you're leaving, where you're going, your destination, and your anticipated return. Then should something happen and you don't return, those who know can call for help.
 
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mmckenna

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We ride at Wayne National Forest in SE Ohio and all of their maps only show major roads or ATV trails. Here's a copy of the map they give us. http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5084019.pdf

Nice for free, but that map is useless for what you are doing. Here's what you should be using. It'll cost you $10.00, but well worth it, especially if you are concerned about accidentally riding on private property:
Wayne National Forest

The thing is they have a ton of service roads and dirt trails for oil pump maintenance and other park areas, if there was an emergency we could give someone on the other end our gps cordinates and they could help point us in the right direction, or tell us where to go that we could get to a heliport faster than spending 30-45 minutes on trails in rough terrain.

This is where good maps come in. You'd know where facilities are ahead of time. A PLB, which you said earlier that you already owned, would get you help faster and tell responders where you were down to a couple of feet. A much better solution in an emergency when you'd be stressed and not necessarily know where you were well enough to tell first responders.

Those are the only frequencies i could find online, not sure if monitored or used anymore. Next trip there, i plan on going to their HQ and asking them about what frequencies they use and if they monitor any frequencies, but i doubt they'll know.

Usually not. They are radio users, not radio techs. They'll know "channel X" but won't be able to tell you frequency/tones, etc. Also, many of these forest service systems are pretty complex with different input tones depending on where you are located.

Unfortunately most people are switching to UTV's and they're making the trail more and more dangerous for sport riders.

Maybe, but it's not the machine, it's the rider. Anyway, hikers will say the same thing about dirt bikes. Dirt bikers say the same thing about ATV's, etc. etc...

We sent our buddy back on the trails but he got lost for 2 hours by himself and caused another whole issue.

Sounds like you guys need some good radios....


We've tested these baofengs out real quick and got about 2 miles in congested city the other day. So hopefully they're up to the task and we'll just get our licenses and be good to go.

That alone won't mean much. Propagation will depend on so many things. The bands you use will make a difference. The UHF band usually performs well in cities where the shorter bandwidth penetrates and bounces around a bit better. Out in the woods/hills, you'll find that VHF will work a bit better.

The amateur 2 meter VHF radio allocation works pretty well in the forests. This is one of the reasons why the USFS uses VHF frequencies. 70cm/UHF band amateur and GMRS will work, but probably not as well.

Been here, done that. Used to use Motorola UHF gear on GMRS. Even had access to some repeaters where we would ride. Worked well, but VHF has worked much better.

Also, antennas make a big difference in performance. Don't overlook this if you are looking for more range. Stock, stubby, flexible antennas are usually a compromise at best. Ditch those and get something better.
 

mmckenna

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I have another question. In an emergency situation (zombie apocalypse, whatever) what would be the best and strongest powered handheld unit 2 people could use to reach eachother or anyone else? Without any legality issues and only using mobile power.

"depends". And it isn't about power. You've got to move away from the "wattage" thing, it isn't what is most important. Higher power just means faster drained batteries. The key is the antenna, proper operation, and having a plan. Higher power can help in some situations, but don't put all your eggs in that basket, you'll be disappointed and have a lighter wallet.

A good amateur radio operator can take a 1 watt HF radio (or less) and a good antenna, good operating skill, and talk around the world. On the other hand, I've known ham operators with a fat wallet, a 1000+ watt amplifier and fancy antennas, but they can't get across the country. Again, step away from the wattage numbers, you've got to look at the whole picture.

Hand held would mean a limited antenna, limited power, limited ground plane, limited altitude above average terrain, etc....

An educated guess would say low band VHF. Something in the 29.7MHz to 50MHz range. If you had your amateur license you could use the 50-54MHz 6 meter band and maybe even have access to amateur radio repeaters on that band.

You can get lower frequency hand held radios, but the antennas get to be much more inefficient.

A lot of the older military radios worked in the 30-76MHz range (or so) Less than one watt would cover some pretty good distances.
There are other issues/gotchas with using these lower frequencies, so "depends" is a good rule of thumb.

If money isn't an object (and it sounds like it probably isn't from what you've said before), cut the crap and just get a couple of satellite phones. It'll cost quite a bit more, but you'll have almost unlimited coverage. There are even companies that will rent them to you for short/long terms. If you absolutely, positively need to reach someone, this would be the way to go.
 
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rapidcharger

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I have another question. In an emergency situation (zombie apocalypse, whatever) what would be the best and strongest powered handheld unit 2 people could use to reach eachother or anyone else? Without any legality issues and only using mobile power.

One of the first, most fundamental things you will learn as you prepare to become a licensed amateur is that you operate with the minimum power necessary for reliable communications..
You'll need to get this guts-glory-ram, tim-the-toolman-taylor ARGH ARGH ARGH mentality out of your head. Higher power isn't a benefit, it's a liability. Especially when the zombies are looking for you.

This is yet another reason why additional privileges, such as the ability to legally use a Baofeng radio is granted to those who have demonstrated proficiency with certain basic principles and not just to anyone who wants to buy one.
 

MTS2000des

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What he said. The CBer mentality of "more watts" just simply isn't the secret sauce. What IS the secret sauce is ANTENNA HEIGHT, ANTENNA GAIN, and LOCATION.

A 1 watt radio into a high gain antenna from a great location can "talk" as far as a 50 watt mobile radio into a unity gain (no gain) antenna from ground level, if not further.

I would also say take the time to actually read and absorb the theory behind many of the questions on your technician exam. If you can find a local club offering classes, I would STRONGLY recommend taking them. Anyone can pass the test by memorizing question pools, but you'll have much more fun and enjoy the hobby more when you understand the WHYs of things.

Aside, running minimum power necessary for communications isn't just good operating practice as it respects other operators' use of the frequency you are on, it is the law.

Running excessive power will not make you HEAR better. Remember, if you're running the proverbial "1.21 gigawatts" and you can't hear the other station, you're not engaging in two way communications and just broadcasting at that point, something else that is forbidden in the amateur radio service, and most other FCC regulated radio services like part 90 and 95.
 

justinm001

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The removal antenna was the main reason we picked up these baofengs. Wattage make the most sense to a newbie like me, more power = more range, especially because antenna are super complicated to understand.

We're planning on purchasing a Rzr this fall and the FT-857d looks like a perfect companion for that coupled with a large antenna. But will not work on sport quads as the radio must be attached to the person and not ATV.

Incase anyone was wondering, we ordered helmet headsets below and they seem to be pretty decent quality for $24. We haven't field tested them yet but they seem great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0090QCK4Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
 

ke6gcv

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The removal antenna was the main reason we picked up these baofengs. Wattage make the most sense to a newbie like me, more power = more range, especially because antenna are super complicated to understand.

We're planning on purchasing a Rzr this fall and the FT-857d looks like a perfect companion for that coupled with a large antenna. But will not work on sport quads as the radio must be attached to the person and not ATV.

Incase anyone was wondering, we ordered helmet headsets below and they seem to be pretty decent quality for $24. We haven't field tested them yet but they seem great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0090QCK4Y?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

The FT-857D is designed for both portability and mobility. As mentioned, it's your antenna that will make all the difference in being able to talk to someone, not transmit power. You can get yourself a decent wire that you can toss into a tree and tune up the HF band to call for help.
 
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Legality isn't important when there's a life threatening emergency.

That belief has failed many people to the tune of 10K or better.

If you are thinking the Part 97 "any frequency" paragraph, FCC has clarified that only applies to other Part 97 freqs for which an Amateur does not have privileges.

Not my words, FCC's words. Roll the dice.
 
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Anothe thought on the Forest Service and Rangers you see with handhelds. Many times they are using a repeater in their vehicle to make the jump to the dispatchers. Don't assume they are talking direct via the handheld.
 

ke6gcv

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That belief has failed many people to the tune of 10K or better.

If you are thinking the Part 97 "any frequency" paragraph, FCC has clarified that only applies to other Part 97 freqs for which an Amateur does not have privileges.

Not my words, FCC's words. Roll the dice.

DISCLAIMER: I don't advocate anything that goes beyond the limit of legality! Why do I say that? Though still frowned upon for transmitting without a license, you're better off calling for help using an Amateur Radio frequency than you are with a public safety frequency. I will end my disclaimer there.

The bigger picture is, save yourself the $10k+ fines you'll pay for broadcasting on public safety frequencies. Get your Ham ticket and learn the hobby. You never know, you may find yourself liking it and want to do/learn more.
 

mmckenna

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The removal antenna was the main reason we picked up these baofengs. Wattage make the most sense to a newbie like me, more power = more range, especially because antenna are super complicated to understand.

It would be nice if that was the solution. Unfortunately it isn't. Proper antenna selection will make more of a difference.
Like others said above, it's a two way street. High power might get your signal out a bit better, but you also need to be able to hear. A radio with a sensitive receiver that is able to pull weak signals out of the noise is one of the keys to a good communications system. Antennas play into this, too.

We're planning on purchasing a Rzr this fall and the FT-857d looks like a perfect companion for that coupled with a large antenna. But will not work on sport quads as the radio must be attached to the person and not ATV.

857 is a good choice if you have your amateur license. To get the full functionality out of the radio, you are going to need an awkward antenna set up. They make mobile antennas that will work well with these radios, however they won't like being beat around on the trails and smacking low tree branches.
You might be better of just using the 10 meter, 6 meter, 2 meter, 70 centimeter portion of that radio. That will let you use a simpler antenna that will likely stand up to the abuse a bit better. Anyway, if you are going to be using it to talk to riders on ATV's, they'll have a hard time finding a portable radio that will cover all the same bands. You'll likely find that using 6 meters (VHF Low) or 2 meters (VHF High) will do what you want and keep the portable radio/antenna requirement reasonable.

Incase anyone was wondering, we ordered helmet headsets below and they seem to be pretty decent quality for $24. We haven't field tested them yet but they seem great.
Amazon.com : Open/Half Face Motorcycle Bike Helmet Earpiece Headset Mic Microphone For Kenwood Two Way Radio Walkie Talkie TK3118 TK3130 TK3131 TK3160 TK3170 TK3173 etc 2pin : Kenwood Helmet Speaker : GPS & Navigation

I used a similar headset when I was riding quads. Worked really well. Take the time to do a good install in the helmet, make sure all the wires are well routed and not dangling down where they'll get caught.
They usually have some sort of disconnect near the helmet, often a mini-DIN connector, that makes taking your helmet off easier.
I can also tell you that getting the portable radio off your belt helps with coverage quite a bit. The human body can absorb a lot of RF. If you wear a backpack or hydration pack while riding, it's a good idea to stick the radio in there. This gets the radio/antenna up a bit higher and away from the body. This will help coverage a bit. I usually had mine with a higher gain antenna sticking up over my shoulder.
Other option would be to get one of the radio chest harnesses. They'll do the same task with the benefit of being able to see the radio controls.

Other word of caution:
Make sure you set the radios up with a "key lock" function. It's -really- easy for keys/knobs to get bumped when you are riding. This often results in someone getting off on another channel/volume turned down, etc. and not being able to hear anyone else.

Other other word of caution:
The type of plugs they use for these headsets are notorious for coming lose while riding. Two things can happen there, 1. headset becomes disconnected, can't TX can't RX. 2. Some radios, especially the Yaesu FT-60 with the single pin connector, have this horrible tendency to have plug back part way out, which results in the radio getting keyed up without the user knowing. Really a pain in the butt since you have to track down who it is and get them to fix it. We've found taping the connectors in place is very helpful!
 

rapidcharger

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That belief has failed many people to the tune of 10K or better.

If you are thinking the Part 97 "any frequency" paragraph, FCC has clarified that only applies to other Part 97 freqs for which an Amateur does not have privileges.

Not my words, FCC's words. Roll the dice.

When and where did they clarify that?
By the way it doesn't say "any frequency." At least not the stations in distress clauses I am aware of.
 
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Copy and paste---------

Your question was referred to me because it concerns the Commission’s amateur radio rules.


Section 97.105(b) answers your question: “A station may only be operated in the manner and to the extent permitted by the privileges authorized for the class of operator license held by the control operator.” Control operator privileges are specified in Section 97.301.


Part 97 does not contain any “privileges authorized” for amateur radio operators that include Part 90 or Part 95 frequencies. Part 90 and 95 both require the use of certificated equipment. See Section 90.203 and 95.409. Use of modified amateur radio transceivers on Part 90 or 95 frequencies violate the rules because modified amateur radio equipment is not certified for either Part 90 or 95 radio services.


As you note, “The rules are clear that in order to use Part 90 or 95 spectrum, the operator must have the correct licensing and certified radios to use those services.” The debate you are referring to, therefore, comes down to “How can we get around the rules?” The answer is, “You can’t.” We will be happy to relieve you of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars and your amateur radio license if you transmit on channels you are not licensed to transmit on.


William


Wireless Telecommunications Bureau"


ADD


§2.405 Operation during emergency.
The licensee of any station (except amateur, standard broadcast, FM broadcast, noncommercial educational FM broadcast, or television broadcast) may, during a period of emergency in which normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake, or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communication service in communicating in a manner other than that specified in the instrument of authorization


Comentary--2.405 says the rule that allows operation in an emergency specifically does NOT apply to amateurs.


There is NOTHING in Part 90 that gives amateurs the privileges to operate on those frequencies.
There is also NOTHING in Part 97 that gives amateurs permission to operate under any other rule parts.
Claims that this single rule in Part 97 gives access to any/all spectrum for use in a real or perceived emergency is taking a -whole-lot-of- liberties with the meaning, and completely ignoring 2.405.
 

rapidcharger

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Copy and paste---------

Your question was referred to me because it concerns the Commission’s amateur radio rules.


Section 97.105(b) answers your question: “A station may only be operated in the manner and to the extent permitted by the privileges authorized for the class of operator license held by the control operator.” Control operator privileges are specified in Section 97.301.


Part 97 does not contain any “privileges authorized” for amateur radio operators that include Part 90 or Part 95 frequencies. Part 90 and 95 both require the use of certificated equipment. See Section 90.203 and 95.409. Use of modified amateur radio transceivers on Part 90 or 95 frequencies violate the rules because modified amateur radio equipment is not certified for either Part 90 or 95 radio services.


As you note, “The rules are clear that in order to use Part 90 or 95 spectrum, the operator must have the correct licensing and certified radios to use those services.” The debate you are referring to, therefore, comes down to “How can we get around the rules?” The answer is, “You can’t.” We will be happy to relieve you of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars and your amateur radio license if you transmit on channels you are not licensed to transmit on.


William


Wireless Telecommunications Bureau"


ADD


§2.405 Operation during emergency.
The licensee of any station (except amateur, standard broadcast, FM broadcast, noncommercial educational FM broadcast, or television broadcast) may, during a period of emergency in which normal communication facilities are disrupted as a result of hurricane, flood, earthquake, or similar disaster, utilize such station for emergency communication service in communicating in a manner other than that specified in the instrument of authorization


Comentary--2.405 says the rule that allows operation in an emergency specifically does NOT apply to amateurs.


There is NOTHING in Part 90 that gives amateurs the privileges to operate on those frequencies.
There is also NOTHING in Part 97 that gives amateurs permission to operate under any other rule parts.
Claims that this single rule in Part 97 gives access to any/all spectrum for use in a real or perceived emergency is taking a -whole-lot-of- liberties with the meaning, and completely ignoring 2.405.

OK I thought you might have been referring to something else I haven't seen yet.
That does not involve the two sections that would appear to exempt a station from all other rules in the event of a station in distress. Whoever wrote to them asked about "emergency communications" which sounds the same but is about something else entirely. Emergency communications (what was it, .405?) does not deal with mayday calls for stations in distress.

Thanks for getting back to me though. Hopefully we'll have the stations in distress language addressed real soon. And hopefully the response will be less emotional. Seems like William took the question personally.
 

DisasterGuy

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The Commission is very tired of these questions because they get them a lot and the answer doesn't change.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 

Voyager

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It's a shame that people try to ask a question and fail because the question is incomplete. I've never seen the FCC issue a ruling that says where a life is involved the rules are more important than saving said life. I can't see them ever issuing such a statement. Even those who argue against saving the life refuse to ask that question of the FCC, as it would potentially contradict their interpretation.

Also note that the 'any frequency' rule was not even addressed in the quoted FCC reply. I would agree that under normal operating conditions there is no authorization for transmitting on non-Part 97 frequencies.

It is interesting to note that retransmission of certain non-Part 97 frequencies is authorized, so the strict interpretation of "Part 97 applies to Part 97 frequencies only" is contradicted by Part 97 itself.
 

rapidcharger

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The Commission is very tired of these questions because they get them a lot and the answer doesn't change.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

If the commission is tired of answering these questions, perhaps the commission should word the rules better, (if necessary) or publish something on their website that explains what those rules are for. My letter asked for an example as to what those rules were for if not a complete exemption from the rules as it appears to be written. If they have answered the question so many times, one would think there would be some other response floating around here other than that email response by someone who evidently woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
 

rapidcharger

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It's a shame that people try to ask a question and fail because the question is incomplete. I've never seen the FCC issue a ruling that says where a life is involved the rules are more important than saving said life. I can't see them ever issuing such a statement. Even those who argue against saving the life refuse to ask that question of the FCC, as it would potentially contradict their interpretation.

Also note that the 'any frequency' rule was not even addressed in the quoted FCC reply. I would agree that under normal operating conditions there is no authorization for transmitting on non-Part 97 frequencies.

It is interesting to note that retransmission of certain non-Part 97 frequencies is authorized, so the strict interpretation of "Part 97 applies to Part 97 frequencies only" is contradicted by Part 97 itself.

The language is something to the effect of "any means necessary..."
That leaves it wide open to interpretation.
 

KMG54

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I know if I am hiking and fall and break a leg, my beofang will try hams first, but then will go to my local sheriffs department as a last resort. A 10k fine or not a life is worth it. And really, I highly doubt the sheriff would get mad if it was really a life threating situation.
 
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