Boonton Township / Mt. Lakes FD Dispatch

[APX8000]

As per NFPA Section 1221, Standard for the Installation, Maintenance, and Use of Emergency Services Communications Systems...

Fireground Communications
8.3.1.3 A separate simplex radio channel shall be provided for on-scene tactical communications.

8.3.6.5 Portable radios shall be capable of multiple channel operation to enable on scene simplex radio communications that are independent of dispatch channels.

8.3.4.1.26 Trunked system talkgroups shall not be used to fulfill the requirement for the provision of a simplex radio channel for on scene communications.


That's why Westchester County for example just recently set up their new system as such. Response/Command on a trunked talkgroup and the fireground ops on simplex analog. Rockland County is in the process of doing the same thing. It is also recommended that analog be used for FG comms rather than digital. There was just an article posted on RR about P25 digital (Phase 1) and background noise causing unintelligible comms. They are trying to get Phase 2 to fix this.

Why try to hit a repeater miles away with a 4 watt UHF portable from inside a brick building when you just need to make it to the incident commander outside and others around. What if you need help? Alot better chance of being heard on simplex.

If you want people (like us buff's) far away to hear fireground comms, do what some agencies on Long Island do. They (on scene firefighters) use a separate repeater other than dispatch/ops for fireground, but they use the repeater INPUT in simplex as their fireground. This way responding units, mutual aid and other can hear what is happening on the fireground by lstening to the repeater output, but they are all actually talking on the repeater input simplex to one another.

 

[RocketNJ]

I believe, and I haven't looked up the regulation, but the new regs from the Div of Fire Safety states that maydays will be handled on a repeated channel.

That would be a stupid mandate then. What if the infrastructure (repeater) doesn't cover in the sub-basement of a building and the person calls mayday or his radio is set to send an emergency on a repeated channel? Ask FDNY what happened when that happened at a house fire in Queens.

Fireground emergency communications should NEVER depend on fixed infrastructure for emergency communications because no system has 100% coverage.

Having all radios capable of talking directly to dispatch isn't a bad thing but if the towns can't afford it, it is not necessary.

 

[kenisned]

That would be a stupid mandate then. What if the infrastructure (repeater) doesn't cover in the sub-basement of a building and the person calls mayday or his radio is set to send an emergency on a repeated channel? Ask FDNY what happened when that happened at a house fire in Queens.

Fireground emergency communications should NEVER depend on fixed infrastructure for emergency communications because no system has 100% coverage.

Having all radios capable of talking directly to dispatch isn't a bad thing but if the towns can't afford it, it is not necessary.

I'm not saying I agree with the rule proposal and I didn't copy the whole thing, but here it is.

NEW JERSEY REGISTER
Copyright © 2007 by the New Jersey Office of Administrative Law

VOLUME 39, ISSUE 9

ISSUE DATE: MAY 7, 2007

RULE PROPOSALS


COMMUNITY AFFAIRS
DIVISION OF FIRE SAFETY

39 N.J.R. 1554(a)



Proposed Amendment: N.J.A.C. 5:75-1.5

Proposed New Rules: N.J.A.C. 5:75-2.5 through 2.10

....

(h) Fire departments should use repeater or multi-site trunked radio systems for emergency radio communications.

 

[SCANdal]

More of the state screwing over the towns...who's going to pay for this?

ken,

It appears that the context they are refering to in the proposal you cite above uses the term "emergency" to mean what most FDs refer to as their operational channels - in contrast to, say, the channel in their radios that they talk to the highway department on when they need a hand plowing out the aprons during a snow storm. In other words when you as a firefighter are dispatched to an "emergency," such as a washdown (which I would not go code 3 to), your radio transmissions - according to this proposal - "should" be through a repeater. e911god points out a direct - and sensible - contridiction above, from a recognized National standard-setting group. Fireground traffic should not routinely be through a repeater. The way I read it, the DFS isn't, or should I say shouldn't be, refering to true FD emergency, such as a mayday.

The proposal, as you snipped it, is very poorly worded and I hope that it gets shot down. As a taxpayer I would not want some chief or commissioner armed with that sort of ammo as a "mandate" to justify an overpriced overkill of a system being sold by a greedy vendor. A .6 square mile borough's fire department, like Bradley Beach in Monmouth County does not need a trunked system - or a repeater for that matter - to cover it's district; a five watt portable should do fine. If the DFS feels an overwheleming need to get itself involved in the design and specification process of local FD radios systems (despite the existing guidance offered by the NFPA), then line (h) should read something along the lines of "Fire departments should design, build, and operate a radio system - or cooperate jointly with an existing radio system - sufficent to insure that their entire service area has portable radio coverage equal to, or in excess of, 90%." If you need to put up a repeater (or join a county TRS) to do that - then so be it. But to be told by the state that you "should" have one or the other is ridiculous. Note that I didn't say that the system built to meet my proposed revision is going to be the same system used on the fireground...

SCANdal

 

[kenisned]

ken,

It appears that the context they are refering to in the proposal you cite above uses the term "emergency" to mean what most FDs refer to as their operational channels - in contrast to, say, the channel in their radios that they talk to the highway department on when they need a hand plowing out the aprons during a snow storm. In other words when you as a firefighter are dispatched to an "emergency," such as a washdown (which I would not go code 3 to), your radio transmissions - according to this proposal - "should" be through a repeater. e911god points out a direct - and sensible - contridiction above, from a recognized National standard-setting group. Fireground traffic should not routinely be through a repeater. The way I read it, the DFS isn't, or should I say shouldn't be, refering to true FD emergency, such as a mayday.

I disagree with your analysis. It's clearly a subsection of the 2.6 "Emergency Radio Traffic" secion.

However, we agree that this is poorly worded and the end result should not mandate a repeated or trunked radio system.

Let me post more, and perhaps it will help the discussion.



5:75-2.6 Emergency radio traffic

(a) A fire department communication system shall provide a standard method for giving priority, over that of routine radio communication, to the transmission of emergency messages and notification of imminent hazards to all levels of the incident command structure.

(b) When firefighters encounter conditions that pose a non-routine threat to their life or safety or that of others, they shall convey that situation via two-way radio to incident commanders and/or rescue crews utilizing clear text (see (f) below).

(c) Fire departments shall have a written standard operating guideline or procedure that uses the radio term "emergency traffic" as a designation to clear radio traffic. An incident commander, safety officer, division or group supervisor, or any member who is in trouble or sees an emergency condition can declare emergency traffic.

1. Various radio tones may also be used to draw attention to an "emergency traffic" message.

(d) Examples of emergency conditions that warrant emergency radio traffic include:

1. A firefighter down or has fallen;

2. A firefighter missing;

3. A firefighter trapped;

4. A firefighter lost;

5. A firefighter "stuck";

6. The need to immediately evacuate the building or area;

7. A building or structure collapse or imminent collapse;

8. A wind direction shift, such as from north to south;

9. Changing from offensive to defensive operations;

10. Equipment failure posing an imminent danger;

11. Fire discovered entering an exposure to a degree that any delay may considerably enlarge the fire problem;

12. Necessity to change from an interior to an exterior attack mode; or

13. Loss of water or other extinguishing agent that would endanger members.

(e) Whenever "emergency traffic" is transmitted via two-way radio, all communications on that frequency shall cease except those between the firefighter initiating the emergency radio transmission and the incident commander and/or the fire department dispatch center. Normal two-way radio use may be resumed upon completion of the emergency message, unless the incident commander orders otherwise.

(f) When a member has declared an emergency traffic message, he or she shall use clear text terms identified in their fire department standard operating guidelines or procedures, such as "firefighter down," "firefighter missing," etc.

1. The term "mayday" shall not be used when operating with aviation or marine personnel.

(g) The procedure for the use of "emergency traffic" is as follows:

1. Firefighters in life-threatening situations shall immediately contact the incident commander via two-way radio stating "emergency traffic" and then identify themselves;

2. The incident commander, upon hearing the "emergency traffic" radio transmission shall acknowledge the person issuing the "emergency traffic" via two-way radio;

3. The person making the "emergency traffic" call shall respond to the incident commander by repeating "emergency traffic", shall identify themselves, their unit and assignment, shall report the nature of the situation including resources needed and shall give their location (LUNAR-location, unit, name or number, assignment and resources needed). Repeating the "emergency traffic" radio transmission shall give any emergency personnel monitoring the radio frequency that may have missed the first transmission an opportunity to hear and react to the "emergency traffic" call accordingly;

4. A person in distress who initiates an "emergency traffic" call shall first activate their personal alert safety system (PASS) device and, if applicable, their radio's emergency button.

i. A person in distress who initiates an "emergency traffic" call shall coordinate his or her radio transmissions with the activation of his or her PASS device;

5. "Emergency traffic" transmissions that are not acknowledged shall be repeated until they are acknowledged.

6. Any fire officer or firefighter hearing an "emergency traffic" signal and realizing that it is not being acknowledged shall acknowledge the radio transmission, ascertain its nature and promptly relay all information to the incident commander;

7. Upon receipt of an "emergency traffic" radio transmission, the incident commander shall be responsible for determining appropriate actions to mitigate the situation at hand; and

8. At the conclusion of the emergency condition, an "all clear for emergency traffic" shall be transmitted to allow a return to normal operations.

(h) Fire departments should use repeater or multi-site trunked radio systems for emergency radio communications.

 

[SCANdal]

Anybody have a contact at the Division in order to put a stop to this?

ken,

Understood...this is worse then I thought. It almost sounds as if someone involved in writing this proposal has a perverse need to want to hear what's going on six towns away - firefighter safety be damned. Taken now in it's entire context, one could interpret this to mean that while operating on a fireground, use a simplex channel, like you're supposed to...but if suddenly you as firefighter becomes, say, #5 ("stuck?" What the difference between that and trapped is, well....), you should now dig out your radio from it's pocket (or from under your coat, or however you choose to wear it), find your operations talkgroup on your trunked system, switch to it, pray that your radio isn't in NC mode or that you don't get bonked and then put over your 'emergency traffic,' all while tangled up in wire runs that fell on your head when a false ceiling above you dropped to the floor. I am not liking this.

I understand the goal of establishing a procedure for the handling of emergency radio traffic, since many fire departments that I am famailar with simply don't have one, but line (h) shouldn't be a part of the answer. A method that I've seen developed by some departments that have taken the time to plan for this type of situation is to have the member in trouble announce his emergency and remain on the normal fireground channel. Everyone else, except for command, the FAST, and anyone else directly involved in the rescue, will switch to an alternate fireground channel for the duration of the emergency. This will allow for the firefight to continue and allows the members working on assisting the firefighter in need to have exclusive use of a channel. I'm personaly not too keen on this idea (now everybody else has to fumble around with their radios to find "FG2," or Channel 4, or whatever). I'd love to hear how other departments are preparing for these types of events.

SCANdal

 

[SCPD]

For the record, I am in no way experienced in this area, but how does the state define "Emergency Radio Communications"?

Could they mean that calling in-service is termed "Emergency Radio Communications". Just a thought.

 

[APX8000]

Res148cue...that's how I think they are stating it above. "Emergency communictions" being everyday dispatch, operations, etc. "Emergency radio traffic" being equal to a "mayday." That's why I think there is confusion over what is recommended by NFPA vs. the State. If that's the way I think they mean it, then yes, everday communications should be through repeaters, whether trunked or not, to allow for greater coverage. However, emergency radio traffic should be through simplex as per NFPA standards. What they really mean, who knows. But I still stand by what I posted previously.

SCANdal also brings up an interesting point as well. My department has a system as such...If you have an emergency, you hit your orange button and annouce it. Your radio ID is also automatically decoded. The radio automatically switches you to the emergency channel on the radio and off the fireground. The FAST team, who will also be on that channel as well as command (priority in their radio while scanning), will respond to your emergency. Everyone else remains on the fireground fighting the fire (unless their radios are scanning, then they will also hear it due to the priority feature...but procedure is scan off). Command can also direct firefighting ops if necessary (like a line needs to be stretched to protect the down firefigher) on the fireground while still maining contact with the down firefighter and FAST team. Our radios are also set up that if you switch your radio dial in either direction 1 or 16, you are on the emergency channel. WHATEVER THE METHOD, TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING IS KEY !!!!!

The problem arises though when your FAST team is mutual aid. They may be on VHF or low band while we are on UHF. If that's the case, their command stands next to our command.

I hope this discussion puts some thoughts in heads as to what your department does in this situation.

 

[kenisned]

Res148cue...that's how I think they are stating it above. "Emergency communictions" being everyday dispatch, operations, etc. "Emergency radio traffic" being equal to a "mayday." That's why I think there is confusion over what is recommended by NFPA vs. the State. If that's the way I think they mean it, then yes, everday communications should be through repeaters, whether trunked or not, to allow for greater coverage. However, emergency radio traffic should be through simplex as per NFPA standards. What they really mean, who knows. But I still stand by what I posted previously.

Read the very first section again, this is not for routine radio communications, this section is for emergency radio communications.

5:75-2.6 Emergency radio traffic

(a) A fire department communication system shall provide a standard method for giving priority, over that of routine radio communication, to the transmission of emergency messages and notification of imminent hazards to all levels of the incident command structure.

 

[SCPD]

The Dispatchers were transfered to County.

 

[SCPD]

Boonton Twp. Mountain Lakes Dispatch

Correct, 46.42 PL 186.2

I heard a rumor that both PD's are on MIRS, but not sure if the dispatchers are gone and they're using the county now.

Anyone with a digi scanner confirm this? I'm monitoring their VHF channel now.

Yes, the dispatchers are gone and the county comm center took over. This happened at the begining of April.

 

[SCPD]

Yes. The dispatchers are gone. I don't know about the second question. The county took over Boonton Twp. and Mt. Lakes at the beginning of April.

 

[gcr33]

How come digital works everywhere else but in Joisy? Get a grip. Digitial is here to stay. Save your allowance for a digital scanner. You will need it.


Last point.... I do NOT want to see any digital fireground channels. That would be a HUGE mistake. Many agencies are struggling and I don't think that should be the place to experiment. I'm even leary of a digital dispatch channel.