Brevard P25 migration update

[ElroyJetson]

Because I'm sure at least two or three people wnat to know....

I spoke to a person who works for Brevard's comms provider recently. A highly placed individual who will KNOW. Not speculate.

There was a rumor that Brevard would join up with the SLERS II system. This is not the case. Brevard fully owns its system and won't be handing control of it over to the State of Florida. The Brevard system shall remain an independent system.

Plans are for a direct transition to P25 Phase 2 with no transition to Phase 1 as was the plan outlined in the planning document that was published to the Brevard EOC's website a few years ago.

When? Pending funding. Don't know when THAT will be. I would not expect the transition within this year.

Encryption: It is being considered. There are definite pros and cons for it. Adding encryption adds a key management issue to address for every encrypted radio. Is there any benefit to encrypting the non-critical users of the system such as the mass transit bus system (SCAT), or road and bridge crews, or Coastal Ambulance Service, which is strictly non-emergency transport? And...probably...school buses will end up on the system, too.

Encrypting more radios means more service issues (since a lost key is a service issue, even if it can be addressed by Over-The-Air Rekeying) and more cost.
And, cost is already the big issue. If you are looking for funding to continue upgrading the system, asking for encryption only complicates the problem you are already trying to address.

My speculation....and to be quite clear, it is only that...my speculation....is that eventually every law enforcement department will have specific dedicated talkgroups that are encrypted, for sensitive information, but routine traffic will remain in the clear. At least this is what I hope will be the answer.

Brevard has been pretty good about being transparent with the public regarding the activities of its police and deputies. It's good public relations to be "Scanner friendly".

I did not ask, but probably should have, what types of mobile and portable radios are favored by the County for new purchase. I suspect they're going to be getting a lot of the XL-185Ps. and XL-185Ms.

 

[TDR-94]

If I had to guess....I would say that they end up joining the same band wagon as all the other east central florida counties, when it comes to encryption. I just don't see Brevard being the only hold out.

 

[18bravo]

If I had to guess....I would say that they end up joining the same band wagon as all the other east central florida counties, when it comes to encryption. I just don't see Brevard being the only hold out.

What are you talking about?

 

[batdude]

What are you talking about?

if i had to guess:

east coast encryptors:

nassau (ALL PS)
duval (PD/SO)
flagler
volusia (rumored after P25 switch)
indian river (PD)
martin / st lucie (PD)
palm beach (PD)
dade (miami beach)


that pretty much leaves Miami, Brevard and Broward as the hold outs

 

[TDR-94]

Well, east "central" Florida is actually composed of Brevard, Orange, Osceola and Volusia counties. I'm not sure if Seminole is "technically" east central Florida or not. The others mentioned are not east "central" Florida counties, but they are eastern Florida counties.

 

[batdude]

Well, east "central" Florida is actually composed of Brevard, Orange, Osceola and Volusia counties. I'm not sure if Seminole is "technically" east central Florida or not. The others mentioned are not east "central" Florida counties, but they are eastern Florida counties.

yes, i read his post wrong..... I would consider Seminole East Central FL.... and to my knowledge, they do not encrypt PD or Fire/EMS traffic - so they are an outlyer as well. I don't think I'd call Osceola Co "east" central tho ... but then again, they encrypt all PD/SO comms... (LOL)

and of course, include Orange County, City of Orlando and most all of the smaller LE departments in Orange .... as being 100% ENC. Fire/Ems - with the exception of Lake County (100% ENC all PS Comms) .... is in the clear in Orange Co/Orlando.

d

 

[TDR-94]

Hmmm....after doing s quick search, it appears that east "central" Florida only comprises of Volusia, Brevard, Indian, St. Lucie, and Martin counties. However, news stations frequently include only the ones I mentioned previously and some other sites just mention REGION 5 as the divider for east "and" central Florida as a whole.

 

[JANFINE]

if i had to guess:

east coast encryptors:

nassau (ALL PS)
duval (PD/SO)
flagler
volusia (rumored after P25 switch)
indian river (PD)
martin / st lucie (PD)
palm beach (PD)
dade (miami beach)


that pretty much leaves Miami, Brevard and Broward as the hold outs

You can add Dade (Hialeah) and Dade (Coral Gables) to encrypted PD.

 

[Tomcu96]

if i had to guess:

east coast encryptors:

nassau (ALL PS)
duval (PD/SO)
flagler
volusia (rumored after P25 switch)
indian river (PD)
martin / st lucie (PD)
palm beach (PD)
dade (miami beach)


that pretty much leaves Miami, Brevard and Broward as the hold out

from using it on the radio database they don't have that much to listen to in the area because all of the pd in the orange county have the same stuff there from it

 

[ElroyJetson]

Adding this comment to keep the topic somewhere well away from the bottom of the list. I have no significant updates as of yet, but have a few equipment notes to add.

Satellite Beach Fire Department has equipped all its members with new Harris XL-185P portables, combination number XS-PPS1M, for about 3800 dollars per radio with accessories. Before the Police Department has upgraded their radios, interestingly enough.


This is a pretty high level radio for fire department use. They could have gotten more XG-75Ps for a bit more than half the price, and had more in the budget for other goodies or more radios.

The P25 Phase II feature and DES/AES encryption features are included. Which proves nothing, since the P25 standards have a requirement that at least single key AES/DES be available even if it's not used.

As late as at least June 2022, some County agency or agencies were still purchasing the older series XG-75M/M7300 mobile radios.

Features of interest: Profile OTAP (Over-The-Air Programming), OTAR (Over-The-Air Rekeying), P-25 Phase 2 TDMA operation, encryption lite, and of course, AES/DES encryption.

I have no information on the possible date of the eventual P25 transition or whether or not encryption will be used full-time, part time, rarely, or not at all. I do expect some talkgroups to be encrypted from day 1.

 

[GTR8000]

The P25 Phase II feature and DES/AES encryption features are included. Which proves nothing, since the P25 standards have a requirement that at least single key AES/DES be available even if it's not used.

There is no such "P25 standard" that requires anything of the sort. None.

What you're likely confused by is the Project 25 Compliance Assessment Program (P25 CAP), although despite being voluntary, is nonetheless used as the benchmark for obtaining federal grant money for P25 capable radios. A radio is P25 CAP approved, and thus eligible for federal grants, only if it meets one of three conditions:

a) No encryption at all
b) AES-256 for federal agencies
c) AES-256 + any other encryption algo for non-federal agencies

The point of the program and the federal government using it as the standard for grants is to ensure that radios which are encryption capable have the industry standard AES-256 at the minimum, as opposed to having only non-standard algos like ADP/ARC4.

Again, there is no requirement from APCO or TIA or anyone else who is involved in the P25 standards that requires any radio to have any encryption capability. That decision is left up to the AHJ...but if you want to buy radios with federal money, they need to have the AES-256 algo if you're going to have encryption.

 

[ElroyJetson]

I appreciate the clarification regarding the CAP.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Today I went on a quest for information and got all I could hope for. I have it from very high authority that Brevard's system will not transition to P25 this year. It is tentatively scheduled for LATE 2024 or possibly early 2025. There seems to be no rush. Good, take the time, do it right,
get it right the first time.

If you monitor the Brevard system and are logging data, please take some time to compare the RR database to your collected data,
and if you see corrections to be made, please submit them.

Expect some usage of encryption, but it will not be mandatory across the system. Agency choice.

 

[TDR-94]

Expect some usage of encryption, but it will not be mandatory across the system. Agency choice.

As in, the agencies will choose whether or not they will encrypt all their talkgroups or just specific talkgroups?

 

[TDR-94]

If I remember correctly, there was a document that indicated that their FCC license(s) for some or all of their current 800 Mhz frequencies expires in 2024.

 

[ElroyJetson]

The specifics of how encryption will be implemented were not revealed to me, plus that's all in the "we're not even seriously planning that far ahead yet anyway" stage.

Of course I expect the FCc licenses to be renewed or changed.

It'd been a long time since I was even near the EOC which is where the central tower site is. Since I was last in the area, they replaced the original tower, which was a guyed tower on a ball mount, with a free standing tower. And there is site work going on, bare dirt everywhere.

 

[ElroyJetson]

This isn't going to be "current events" for quite some time, but I have it on the best authority that the County's contract does NOT force the County to only buy radios from Harris when the P25 system is implemented. Other vendors WILL have an opportunity to participate competitively, but Harris will remain the prime contractor. Other vendor's specific products will be considered on a case by case basus to see if they fit specific requirements better than others. But there are requirements being set by the County for this, which include a requirement that other vendor's products must be operationally interchangeable with Harris products, such as deciding to sub an APX6000 for an XL185. Or perhaps something from Tait, Kenwood/EFJ, or BK.

By operationally interchangeable, it means that the method of operating the equipment and its features should be the same. As an example, a Harris radio that is equipped with wifi functionality should behave the same as a Motorola or other vendor radio that is also equipped with wifi functionality. Such as whether or not it will auto-join a known wifi network or if it requires manual joining. The radio user will be expected to not have to learn a different procedure in order to perform the same task.

The basic goal here is to achieve vendor agnostic results. It should not matter which brand radio you use, it should work the same and perform the same. Of course Harris would prefer to sell all things to the County but this just means they'll have to prove themselves to be more competitive and offer better solutions in an open market. Motorola definitely wants a piece of this, too, so this should be fun to watch.

So in maybe a year or two, when the system transitions to P25, you might find that not every radio on the system is a Harris product.
My own hope is that some other vendors do establish some presence within the system, due to them offering fully qualified, high quality products at a favorable price point.

 

[TDR-94]

Sounds like a cluster f**k in the making, to me.

 

[ElroyJetson]

What makes you say that? There are quite a few agencies that buy more than one brand of P25 products where it fits their needs.


As an example, Sumter County, FL, has the county fire/rescue department using entirely Motorola P25 radios, while the Sheriff's Department is all Harris, and both operate on the same P25 system. Both agencies are apparently perfectly satisfied with their equipment.

 

[TDR-94]

My guess is that they are not utilizing OTAR or OTAP?