California declares Ham Radio no longer a benefit......

[vagrant]

But is it redundant? Does it have the same coverage that it enjoyed at the previous site? Will they complain when it doesn't? Does the trustee now have prohibitive out of pocket expenses that make the repeater unreliable? Did the repeater even move as opposed to being just taken down? Saying it is redundant is a pretty big claim when it most likely won't be

- All an amateur is going to do is pass traffic.
- Even in a new location, it would have better coverage than an offline repeater. It may even have better coverage.
- Who exactly would be complaining?
- Prohibitive out of pocket expenses...ugh...okay. If it is cost prohibitive, the trustee should sell that equipment and use that money to take care of themselves and their family, or just host it on their own property. A working repeater is usually better than one that is offline.
- Whether it was taken offline or put back up is up to the trustee.

Hmm....should the state let any licensed amateur host a repeater at their sites? If not everyone, whom and who decides that? What about GMRS repeaters?

Ultimately it is about coverage
I recommend people take a look at APRS.fi. If you use the filter to ignore weather stations and then select the box for only Digipeaters, you are looking at sites that probably have, at minimum, several amateur radio repeaters at those locations. What you do not see are the many other repeater sites that do not have an APRS digipeater. I can tell you that between Stockton and Bakersfield California, there are at least 10 times as many repeaters as there are digipeaters. Looking at just those listed digipeaters alone, their coverage area is pretty significant. If you are unsure of my claim, please visit NARCC.org. I could be wrong as there may be more. To get a "visual" idea of coverage. Take a look at this VHF propagation map that uses APRS digipeaters. Take a look at California and then select the different colored globs. You'll see a digipeater pop up and the current coverage it has. To be fair, there is probably some propagation going on and packets get through better than FM voice. Still, you're only observing just a few digipeaters on that visual map. Multiply that significantly with all of the repeaters and you can start to imagine the saturation.

NARCC.org handles this area of California and has the following repeaters listed. The following numbers do not include the DMR, P25, Fusion and D-Star repeaters. This is analog only.
70cm = 771
2m = 417
1.25m = 160
33cm = 101
6m = 58

The sky is not falling

 

[mmckenna]

I was reading some posts on Facebook regarding this, (I know, I should stop) and one operator justified his emcomm relevance by disclosing he has a concealed weapons permit.

That just made me cringe. It's fine with me if he has a CCW, but linking that to volunteer emcomm shows he's has no idea of the served agency's needs.

That would be a concern for many agencies.

 

[Citywide173]

- Even in a new location, it would have better coverage than an offline repeater. It may even have better coverage.
- Who exactly would be complaining?

Your quote

Remind them of the move? Do you mean if their system is offline and or they need an amateur system to pass traffic that they should be reminded that because of the forced move there is now redundancy which helps everyone?

When I offer my help, I avoid making it conditional.

Redundancy refers to the ability to operate without any changes in cases of failure. If the coverage area is not the same, it is not redundant.

As far as who would be complaining it would be the "them," "Their" and "they" that you referred to in the second quoted post.

 

[vagrant]

Redundancy refers to the ability to operate without any changes in cases of failure. If the coverage area is not the same, it is not redundant.

You are correct. If the coverage is improved or reduced it would not be the same.

Perhaps this will help others understand the bigger picture of saturation/interference. There is a need for a repeater coordination body. The repeater noted by the OP is handled by NARCC.org.

 

[ke6gcv]

@zz0468 Thank you for helping me to better understand things. It has certainly been a while since I was last told about how repeaters were set up. I didn't think about how much it has actually changed until now.

 

[k6cpo]

I think what may have driven the original letter that triggered this entire flap is that Cal Fire is grossly underfunded for the current wildfire situation in the state. With the on-going drought, trees dying from bark beetle infestation and more people moving into the urban interface fire areas, Cal Fire is trying to capture revenue they aren't getting in the annual state budget.

 

[ko6jw_2]

I suggest the everyone visit this CalFire site which tells a completely different story:

Welcome to Volunteers In Prevention

www.fire.ca.gov

 

[k6cpo]

I suggest the everyone visit this CalFire site which tells a completely different story:

Welcome to Volunteers In Prevention

www.fire.ca.gov

How old is that page?

Up until a couple of years ago, the San Diego Unit of Cal Fire had a program called "Red Flag Patrol." two person teams of amateur radio operators would be deployed by vehicle into fire-prone areas on holidays, like Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day. Not only were they looking for actual fires and smoke, but they would report weather information such as wind direction and speed, precipitation, and humidity from various locations in their patrol area. They would then report back to Cal Fire HQ by radio with the information.

Well, that program was abruptly terminated by Cal Fire a couple of years ago and all the amateur radio gear was removed from the local Cal Fire HQ. I am unaware if there were similar programs in place in other parts of the state and if any, if they are still in operation.

 

[W5GX]

ARRL has weighed in.

Report Causes Concern and Confusion in California’s Amateur Radio Ranks

The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) is the national association for amateur radio, connecting hams around the U.S. with news, information and resources.

www.arrl.org

 

[ko6jw_2]

One of the issues here is the problem of convincing CalFire or USFS that amateur radio repeaters are not there simply to serve their agency. I just spent a couple of hours on the phone with the USFS and successfully convinced them that our repeater at the Figueroa Ranger Station in the Los Padres NF is not there just to support fire watches which they no longer (according to them) need us to perform. I explained that we provide emergency communications for the County of Santa Barbara, local cities and hospitals. We also support large public events like bike rides. A repeater that had been in place for 24 years was threatened. I succeeded and all we have to do is update our existing permit.

Another major repeater site at Santa Ynez Peak in the LPNF has amateur radio repeaters in a USFS building and others in private facilities. The ham repeaters in the USFS building pay a little over $100 per year. I'm involved with a repeater in a private building and tower at Santa Ynez. We pay a nominal rent to the owner (he's a ham). However, rack space is very valuable and hams need to expect to pay something.

There is a State of California building on Santa Ynez Peak. It houses various state radios like CHP and CalFire etc. No ham equipment in there.

I think that what we are seeing is agencies looking to cover budget shortfalls and seeing ham radio as a potential source of rents.

 

[mmckenna]

ARRL has weighed in.

Report Causes Concern and Confusion in California’s Amateur Radio Ranks

The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) is the national association for amateur radio, connecting hams around the U.S. with news, information and resources.

www.arrl.org

TL;DR version:
"ARRL officials who have also looked into the situation agree that it’s been blown out of proportion by parties with their own agendas."

 

[norcalscan]

Again. I don't think the original email thread was included in any subsequent blow up, either that or everyone has a severe lack of reading comprehension. The names/calls of people involved are clear in the original thread that the ARRL doesn't appear to have, nor does the 14page pontification to the Governor and Senators et al, mention the original thread/intent. Indeed, as leaving the original intent out certainly sets up the hot-headed argument that "the state is kicking out all hams."

Omission of facts to create a different argument is typical in the political landscape up here.

This is one repeater, in one CalFire-owned vault that was recently affected in the Carr Fire so is probably going through an audit/survey related to repairs/maintenance etc. and thus the ham repeater was discovered. (I'm not aware the vault itself was damaged, but backup power to it failed if I recall). CalFire has radio equipment in their own vaults which they govern, coexist in "state" vaults that the DGS/PSCO governs, and in leased space with feds, other state agencies, and in commercial entities like ATT/Verizon sites. This instance is in a CalFire-owned and governed space, one that probably is going through extensive rehab after the fire, requiring re-engineering of equipment and users, and suddenly the question of who was going to pay for the RF engineering of the ham frequency, as well as the rent/agreements/etc. The quote from the employee in the Tower and Vaults dept of CalFire stating they "no longer need the ham's help - thanks" is not at all indicative of agency-wide and certainly not state-wide decisions at this moment. That one repeater, in that one particular vault, is no longer of value to CalFire where local CalFire budgets are willing to pay for its existence. That should have been the end of the story, but alas, here we are. Round and round we go, a fool's errand.

 

[W5GX]

TL;DR version:
"ARRL officials who have also looked into the situation agree that it’s been blown out of proportion by parties with their own agendas."

Here's a good tidbit, too:

“The State of California has not made any determination we can find ‘that Ham Radio [is] no longer a benefit,’” Pacific Division Director Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT, is quoted on the Sacramento Valley Section website.