Chinese APCO P25 Transceiver

[rfradioconsult]

Back in the mid 70's Motorola tried to sell used equipment that they had taken in on trade, they would load a rental truck and hit some of the larger hamfests in the area. You had to show your license and sign a form that the equipment would not be returned to commercial service. A good plan that didn't work, soon the equipment was showing up back in commercial service. Moto returned to sending all the used equipment to the landfills. A lesson learned.

 

[w4rez]

Some HYT / Hytera and Kirisun models will do DMR.

Also what do hams need a p25 repeater and radio for? This is the reason we destroy and recycle all traded in digital equipment so it does not return to the field.

Seriously? It's not a matter of what hams "need." Last time I checked, amateur radio was a hobby, and one of the things that those hobbyists like to do is take old commercial radios and breathe new life into them after their commercial life cycle has ended.

The FCC says that P25 is allowed on ham frequencies, and if I wanted to live in a country where I only got what I "needed" I'd move to China.

If you guys "destroy all traded in digital equipment so it does not return to the field" then that's truly a dick move by a vendor and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

 

[prcguy]

Its purely a profit thing, apparently Bloatorola lost a few $$ on the sales of a new radio because a perfectly good used one was recycled, so now they destroy all trade ins. That's great. No wonder they cry when Harris or someone else gets a big (and deserved) contract for radios which Bloatorola thought they had all wrapped up.
prcguy

Back in the mid 70's Motorola tried to sell used equipment that they had taken in on trade, they would load a rental truck and hit some of the larger hamfests in the area. You had to show your license and sign a form that the equipment would not be returned to commercial service. A good plan that didn't work, soon the equipment was showing up back in commercial service. Moto returned to sending all the used equipment to the landfills. A lesson learned.

 

[sefrischling]

Is the Kirisun 770 P25 compatible? Yes? No?

 

[TEKurtz]

No the 770 is DMR, a different digital mode.

You guys have to face it, everything is going digital. Digital modes offer many improvements whether it be APCO25, DMR or almost any other type.
Amateur radio is lagging way behind but will eventually catch up. Digital mode doesn't have an immediate place as a necessity in amateur radio at the moment but many current hams are ready to move on to newer technology and revive their love of the hobby. The hams of the future will expect nothing less than digital high quality transmissions, and I can't blame them.

 

[w4rez]

Its purely a profit thing, apparently Bloatorola lost a few $$ on the sales of a new radio because a perfectly good used one was recycled, so now they destroy all trade ins. That's great. No wonder they cry when Harris or someone else gets a big (and deserved) contract for radios which Bloatorola thought they had all wrapped up.
prcguy

Ugh I cannot stand waste, especially when it's done in the name of greed.

 

[w4rez]

No the 770 is DMR, a different digital mode.

You guys have to face it, everything is going digital. Digital modes offer many improvements whether it be APCO25, DMR or almost any other type.
Amateur radio is lagging way behind but will eventually catch up. Digital mode doesn't have an immediate place as a necessity in amateur radio at the moment but many current hams are ready to move on to newer technology and revive their love of the hobby. The hams of the future will expect nothing less than digital high quality transmissions, and I can't blame them.

Do you really, honestly believe that the quality of digital audio is superior to analog? I call shenanigans. You do get a ton more features with digital, but the quality of the audio itself is crap compared to 20K0F3E or even 11K0F3E.

I remember back in the early 2000s when we still had analog-only service out in the sticks... I used to love hitting those towers because analog static was so much more bearable than the sound of somebody drowning like with a weak digital cellular signal. P25 is just as crappy. I hate it.

 

[TEKurtz]

I don't know what you're listening to because one can not say that analog is better than digital. Any digital mode is far superior and that includes p25.
It's always a HAM who doesn't understand the tech that says these silly things.

 

[w4rez]

I don't know what you're listening to because one can not say that analog is better than digital. Any digital mode is far superior and that includes p25.
It's always a HAM who doesn't understand the tech that says these silly things.

You're making a really dumb and incorrect assumption that the only exposure I've ever had to radio (or digital audio in general) has been through amateur radio.

P25 sounds like crap, dude. You must be one of those salesmen responsible for our government wasting billions of dollars on this crap when a good old fashioned multi-site analog conventional system or even analog trunking system would work just fine.

Oh yeah that's right. We need it because of the terrorists, don't we?

Furthermore, judging by some of the articles that pop up almost daily on here about government agencies spending millions of dollars on radio systems that do not work, I bet you that a HAM (since you seem to use that term diminutively) could have done a better job at designing some of these systems and done it at a fraction of the cost of these so called "professional system engineers" that's out there nowadays that apparently got their qualifications out of an effin' bubblegum machine.

So you don't like HAMs, eh? Big flippin' deal. We don't like you either.

 

[TEKurtz]

Wow. You obviously have some other agenda going on inside your head.

It's called technologically advancing, if you're not moving forward you're falling behind.

I believe that you've convinced yourself that analog modes sound as good as digital...but convincing yourself doesn't make it so.
All one has to do is compare an identical transmission from one single radio in an analog mode and then in digital mode and it'll be clear as day which is better .....even if you already have your preconceived notions that it isn't better or even necessary.

If we all had that kind of screwed up mindset then we would have never advanced from Over-the-air VHF TV. We would be on the roof right now trying to adjust the antenna so we don't have to watch Archie Bunker through the static snow again.....Nor would we have packet data in which to have a forum such as this one!

Time to pull your head out and reevaluate what it is you think you know.

 

[w4rez]

Wow. You obviously have some other agenda going on inside your head.

It's called technologically advancing, if you're not moving forward you're falling behind.

I believe that you've convinced yourself that analog modes sound as good as digital...but convincing yourself doesn't make it so.
All one has to do is compare an identical transmission from one single radio in an analog mode and then in digital mode and it'll be clear as day which is better .....even if you already have your preconceived notions that it isn't better or even necessary.

If we all had that kind of screwed up mindset then we would have never advanced from Over-the-air VHF TV. We would be on the roof right now trying to adjust the antenna so we don't have to watch Archie Bunker through the static snow again.....Nor would we have packet data in which to have a forum such as this one!

Time to pull your head out and reevaluate what it is you think you know.

Ok whatever you say, dude. You're entitled to your opinion. All I know is that digital makes my head hurt, unlike analog.

I've already acknowledged that digital gives us a richer feature set than analog, but that does NOT mean that it sounds better. It reminds me of our CFO when he got his first smartphone. He told me "You can do pretty much anything under the sun with this thing but it makes a lousy PHONE."

And just so you know, I manage an IP network that handles a couple hundred thousand digital phone calls every day, and is growing... so I'm not some luddite living in a cave that's afraid of or doesn't understand modern technology. My Polycom SIP phone on my desk can do really neat stuff, but it still doesn't sound as good as my ancient Western Electric analog phone on the wall in my dining room.

I haven't heard a radio yet that sounds as good as an old Motorola Maratrac, or to go back further, one of the old Mitreks. Sure, the Mitreks only had a couple of channels, and I think could only handle one PL, but those couple of channels and that one PL sounded awesome.

 

[TEKurtz]

Ok whatever you say, dude. You're entitled to your opinion. All I know is that digital makes my head hurt, unlike analog.



I've already acknowledged that digital gives us a richer feature set than analog, but that does NOT mean that it sounds better. It reminds me of our CFO when he got his first smartphone. He told me "You can do pretty much anything under the sun with this thing but it makes a lousy PHONE."



And just so you know, I manage an IP network that handles a couple hundred thousand digital phone calls every day, and is growing... so I'm not some luddite living in a cave that's afraid of or doesn't understand modern technology. My Polycom SIP phone on my desk can do really neat stuff, but it still doesn't sound as good as my ancient Western Electric analog phone on the wall in my dining room.



I haven't heard a radio yet that sounds as good as an old Motorola Maratrac, or to go back further, one of the old Mitreks. Sure, the Mitreks only had a couple of channels, and I think could only handle one PL, but those couple of channels and that one PL sounded awesome.

If you heard those radios now they wouldn't impress you as much, not to say they weren't the best then. Quality is a big factor then and now. Your SIP phone was prob made in China for as cheap as possible.

I'm repeating myself here, Turn any digital capable radio of almost any quality on and listen to a transmission in analog, then in digital.
If you think the Mertik sounded good..then hold on to your hat.

YouTube a bunch of radio reviews, DMR, APCO25, whatever....you can usually tell through the audio of the camcorder just how clean and clear digital is.
It's relatively new technology and will only get better, more efficient and more narrow.

 

[prcguy]

P25 and other digital modes used for 2-way radio communications loose a lot of audio fidelity compared to analog FM of similar channel BW. Analog FM can have a similar audio frequency response and dynamic range as POTS; or land-line telephone. P25 digital is far from that.

I've used analog FM radios for a good 40yrs and currently use various P25 commercial radios and there is no comparison, FM sounds better compared to the current digital technology. There are times when I get a call in P25 mode and I have to wait for the person to identify because the fidelity is not good enough to recognize the caller. Its possible to have a crappy analog FM radio that doesn't sound so good, but that is a hardware problem and not inherent to the mode.

Someday the gap will be narrower and digital 2-way radios may someday provide more audio fidelity than analog FM, but not this week. Digital television is a completely different animal and not relevant to comparing 2-way radio formats.
prcguy

Wow. You obviously have some other agenda going on inside your head.

It's called technologically advancing, if you're not moving forward you're falling behind.

I believe that you've convinced yourself that analog modes sound as good as digital...but convincing yourself doesn't make it so.
All one has to do is compare an identical transmission from one single radio in an analog mode and then in digital mode and it'll be clear as day which is better .....even if you already have your preconceived notions that it isn't better or even necessary.

If we all had that kind of screwed up mindset then we would have never advanced from Over-the-air VHF TV. We would be on the roof right now trying to adjust the antenna so we don't have to watch Archie Bunker through the static snow again.....Nor would we have packet data in which to have a forum such as this one!

Time to pull your head out and reevaluate what it is you think you know.

 

[TEKurtz]

P25 and other digital modes used for 2-way radio communications loose a lot of audio fidelity compared to analog FM of similar channel BW. Analog FM can have a similar audio frequency response and dynamic range as POTS; or land-line telephone. P25 digital is far from that.

I've used analog FM radios for a good 40yrs and currently use various P25 commercial radios and there is no comparison, FM sounds better compared to the current digital technology. There are times when I get a call in P25 mode and I have to wait for the person to identify because the fidelity is not good enough to recognize the caller. Its possible to have a crappy analog FM radio that doesn't sound so good, but that is a hardware problem and not inherent to the mode.

Someday the gap will be narrower and digital 2-way radios may someday provide more audio fidelity than analog FM, but not this week.
prcguy

I don't know what system or band you're on, but that sounds to me like a implementation issue, improper engineering or half-*** addition of p25 on an aging network.
The statewide systems in CT, MA and RI are Phenomenal. So good that there is talk of creating a New England-wide interop network in the 700mhz. And the terrain around here is FAR from radio friendly.

 

[w4rez]

Yeah digital sounds amazing... when you're sitting right under the tower.

You like to assume, don't you? You're making the assumption that I've never heard a digital radio before, even though.... how else could one make my head hurt if I hadn't heard one before?

With that being said, I have been bitten by the TRBO/DMR bug lately, but it's not because I'm madly in love with the audio quality, but because the technology seems to lend itself quite well to wide-area amateur use.

P25 is a doggone joke, though, and an expensive one at that.

And yes, my cell phone was made in China. Just like every other cell phone out there. But Motorola would never manufacture anything in China, would they? Nosirreebob. All 'Merican.

 

[12dbsinad]

I think we all have to remember here that us, humans, speak analog. Your recovered audio on any digital format has to be turned back to analog, unless we are aliens. So, there is really no such thing as "sounding better than analog". If your talking noise, etc, that's one thing. Just thought i'd add my 2 cents.

 

[TEKurtz]

It was a safe assumption because there were two possibilities. One, you are like my Ham friends who are petrified of the latest ham tech (digital, internet repeaters) mainly because it's way over their head. Two, you haven't actually heard a typical digital transmission on an average properly working network.

12dbinad, that makes no sense. Analog radio modes are still modulated and demodulated. Can your brain hear and demodulate 220 mhz FM?

 

[prcguy]

Using Racal/Thales T25 handhelds, Motorola XTS-2500 and XTS-5000 in P25 mode simplex and comparing to analog mode. Analog is better and more "natural" sounding.

I have not spent any time with DMR or Mototrbo, so can't comment on that.
prcguy

I don't know what system or band you're on, but that sounds to me like a implementation issue, improper engineering or half-*** addition of p25 on an aging network.
The statewide systems in CT, MA and RI are Phenomenal. So good that there is talk of creating a New England-wide interop network in the 700mhz. And the terrain around here is FAR from radio friendly.

 

[TEKurtz]

It was a safe assumption because there were two possibilities. One, you are like my Ham friends who are petrified of the latest ham tech (digital, internet repeaters) mainly because it's way over their head. Two, you haven't actually heard a typical digital transmission on an average properly working network.

12dbinad, that makes no sense. Analog radio modes are still modulated and demodulated. Can your brain hear and demodulate 220 mhz FM?

 

[12dbsinad]

It was a safe assumption because there were two possibilities. One, you are like my Ham friends who are petrified of the latest ham tech (digital, internet repeaters) mainly because it's way over their head. Two, you haven't actually heard a typical digital transmission on an average properly working network.

12dbinad, that makes no sense. Analog radio modes are still modulated and demodulated. Can your brain hear and demodulate 220 mhz FM?

Huh? Can I hear and demodulate 220 Mhz FM? I don't even know how to reply to that. The best thing for you to do is get educated on how modulation even works. Then, you would begin to get a clue on what you are even talking about.