CHP Scanner Antenna?

lenk911

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Curious: How do CHP mobile units get a quality receive resonance at 39 and 45 MHZ (42 Mhz too?). It is a two part problem for them, antenna resonance over 6 MHZ and receiver front end band width. That is a 15% channel spread.

Do the mobiles have dual receiver front ends (DFE)?
Two mobile antennas?
Radio shop visit to switch out mobile to cross subsystem boundaries?
Do they just live with inefficiencies in the receive antenna system and make it up in higher repeater talk out gain?

I have not engineered a statewide low band system since 1978. Then you could get 1/2 MHZ spacing unless you equipped the mobile with a DFE. Then you still had a VSWR issues on the wide receive frequency. Probably there is some new technology!
 

prcguy

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Curious: How do CHP mobile units get a quality receive resonance at 39 and 45 MHZ (42 Mhz too?). It is a two part problem for them, antenna resonance over 6 MHZ and receiver front end band width. That is a 15% channel spread.

Do the mobiles have dual receiver front ends (DFE)?
Two mobile antennas?
Radio shop visit to switch out mobile to cross subsystem boundaries?
Do they just live with inefficiencies in the receive antenna system and make it up in higher repeater talk out gain?

I have not engineered a statewide low band system since 1978. Then you could get 1/2 MHZ spacing unless you equipped the mobile with a DFE. Then you still had a VSWR issues on the wide receive frequency. Probably there is some new technology!
They currently use wide band antennas rated for 39 through 46MHz with no tuning. Here is a model they have been using and they have a second type which I can't find info on. I have one of each and they do work across the full range.


Update:
The picture in the ad is of the new model, unknown mfr, but the model stated in the ad is the original Laird version which I don't think matches the picture.
 
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monitor142

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They currently use wide band antennas rated for 39 through 46MHz with no tuning. Here is a model they have been using and they have a second type which I can't find info on. I have one of each and they do work across the full range.


Update:
The picture in the ad is of the new model, unknown mfr, but the model stated in the ad is the original Laird version which I don't think matches the picture.
Their latest antenna is a wide band spec that Panarama is making for the CHP. It's the AVLWB 39-46 which is elusive in their product catalogs but a Google search finds a few shops selling them.
 
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Yes. But compare the specs --- pass band, any filtering, noise figure, .....
I was directed to this Radio Shack satellite TV in line amplifier that mounts at the antenna. I'm told I would need a PL-259 adapter and something and something. I'm told that the advantages are that I can run RG6Q cable which is good up through 900 MHz. The Radio Shack version has 10 dB of amplifier gain and a low noise figure. There's another model that has 20 dB gain but I think that's too high from what I've read?

Lastly, one can either buy a handful of 3 and 6 dB inline attenuators or get a single variable attenuator. With the variable attenuator I'm told all that one needs to do is look at the signal indicator bars which should now be elevated when no signal is present. I'm told that's the noise figure showing itself. So then dial back the variable attenuator until no bars appear on the scanners. Or mix and match with the inline variable attenuators. The idea is to keep it simple. I can see the variable attenuator being most effective when using a 20 dB inline amplifier.

Amplifier

Attenuator
 
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prcguy

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I was directed to this Radio Shack satellite TV in line amplifier that mounts at the antenna. I'm told I would need a PL-259 adapter and something and something. I'm told that the advantages are that I can run RG6Q cable which is good up through 900 MHz. The Radio Shack version has 10 dB of amplifier gain and a low noise figure. There's another model that has 20 dB gain but I think that's too high from what I've read?

Lastly, one can either buy a handful of 3 and 6 dB inline attenuators or get a single variable attenuator. With the variable attenuator I'm told all that one needs to do is look at the signal indicator bars which should now be elevated when no signal is present. I'm told that's the noise figure showing itself. So then dial back the variable attenuator until no bars appear on the scanners. Or mix and match with the inline variable attenuators. The idea is to keep it simple. I can see the variable attenuator being most effective when using a 20 dB inline amplifier.

Amplifier

Attenuator
RG6 is good to at least 3GHz and there is no need to get quad shield. Any RG6 rated for satellite use (950-2150MHz) will be fine. Will the amplifier be used just for CHP reception or wide band through 800? If this is just for CHP reception the loss in RG6 at 40MHz is very minimal and probably doesn't warrant an amplifier.
 

Ubbe

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The Radio Shack version has 10 dB of amplifier gain and a low noise figure.

Those types of amplifiers usually have high noise figures. Where can its noise parameters been seen and also its IP3 overload handling?

I'm told all that one needs to do is look at the signal indicator bars which should now be elevated when no signal is present. I'm told that's the noise figure showing itself. So then dial back the variable attenuator until no bars appear on the scanners.

The correct method are to look at the digital bit error counter, if the scanner has that, and adjust for minimal value when receiving a digital signal. In other cases you listen with your ears to a weak signal in analog mode with not too much modulation, not a datasignal but someone talking, and adjust for minimum noise in the signal. In VHF band you should always hear the continuous NOAA transmissions. The amount of maximum signal that can be used are usually different depending of the frequency band. You can't use the signal bars when adjusting antenna amplifiers levels.

/Ubbe
 
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@prcguy It will be broadband. That amplifier as I recall from reading has a bottom end of 50 but I'm told it gives a bit of a bump down at 40 that overcomes line losses,f minimal as it may be. Yes, I'll be using it up in the 700 and 800. I was told that I should use nothing less than LMR 400 but it's not very flexible and the loss doesn't really seem to be that different. Based on the comments of @Ubbe I was able to look up the noise figure and found it to be 7.5 dB from 50-900 MHz. I guess using the attenuator would be used to dial out the noise figure leaving net zero gain.
 

AM909

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That NF is kind of high. I think 2-4 dB is going to be in the right price/performance neighborhood. I only had a minute to look, but this RFLambda amp or this Stridsberg has more the kind of specs you're looking for, though not necessarily the right packaging, etc. Most of that won't matter much for lowband, but will be more important at VHF/UHF/800. Of course, if you're just listening to high-level repeaters that come booming in, it doesn't matter much, either.
 

prcguy

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@prcguy It will be broadband. That amplifier as I recall from reading has a bottom end of 50 but I'm told it gives a bit of a bump down at 40 that overcomes line losses,f minimal as it may be. Yes, I'll be using it up in the 700 and 800. I was told that I should use nothing less than LMR 400 but it's not very flexible and the loss doesn't really seem to be that different. Based on the comments of @Ubbe I was able to look up the noise figure and found it to be 7.5 dB from 50-900 MHz. I guess using the attenuator would be used to dial out the noise figure leaving net zero gain.
Noise figure is determined by the amplifier and you can't dial it out. You can attenuate after the amp to reduce the overall gain but that does not affect high signal overload problems. You never want to attenuate before the amplifier. If the amplifier is placed at the antenna (where it should be) then cable loss is much less of a problem, get an amp that makes up for cable loss and maybe just a little more.
 

techman210

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I was directed to this Radio Shack satellite TV in line amplifier that mounts at the antenna....

I have used these twice for their intended purpose, and both times they generated more noise than signal and went back to RS for a refund.

Absolute garbage.

Remember, the intention of a preamp is to overcome losses of the cable and not recover a signal that is barely there to begin with.
 

Ubbe

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Most, if not all, scanners have bandpass filters as the first thing that the RF signal encounters and will have something like a minumum of a 3dB loss that will add to its noise level. If you amplify more than 3dB before the scanner it will overcome that filter loss making the scanner 3dB more sensitive. It would be like having two antennas stacked together. But the amplifier used needs to have a lower noise figure than the scanner to see any improvements, and also needs to be able to handle big signals without loosing sensitivity or overload and it doesn't use those bandpass filters as the scanner uses to filter away out of band signals.

Those amplifiers that use PGA103+ have less than 1dB noise and handle big signals pretty well. It's difficult to see that they can do a design mistake with those amplifiers, it's just a couple of additional components, but what differs are how they are powered. Some from the coax and others from the amplifiers power connector and some have both solutions and with different voltages. Just do a search for PGA103+ at Ebay or Amazon.

/Ubbe
 
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...I only had a minute to look, but this RFLambda amp or this Stridsberg has more the kind of specs you're looking for, though not necessarily the right packaging, etc. Most of that won't matter much for lowband, but will be more important at VHF/UHF/800...
My intent is to have one scanner that does 700/800 only. Then the second scanner does VHF high band Only and then the third scanner does CHP only. I know this could be simpler but the way I intend to set it up is that it'll give the user the option of what they listen too. My question though is that if I were to use for example the Stroudsburg that works from 600 MHz-1 GHz what happens to the signals lower than that? Do they just pass through on Amplified or as I suspect, does putting in the Stroudsburg basically narrow band the front end?
 
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Most, if not all, scanners have bandpass filters as the first thing that the RF signal encounters and will have something like a minumum of a 3dB loss that will add to its noise level. If you amplify more than 3dB before the scanner it will overcome that filter loss making the scanner 3dB more sensitive. It would be like having two antennas stacked together. But the amplifier used needs to have a lower noise figure than the scanner to see any improvements, and also needs to be able to handle big signals without loosing sensitivity or overload and it doesn't use those bandpass filters as the scanner uses to filter away out of band signals.
I understand much better now. Thank you.
 

gmclam

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My intent is to have one scanner that does 700/800 only. Then the second scanner does VHF high band Only and then the third scanner does CHP only. I know this could be simpler but the way I intend to set it up is that it'll give the user the option of what they listen too. My question though is that if I were to use for example the Stroudsburg that works from 600 MHz-1 GHz what happens to the signals lower than that? Do they just pass through on Amplified or as I suspect, does putting in the Stroudsburg basically narrow band the front end?
This is pretty much my setup. One receiver locked on the county's P25 system, one "dedicated" to CHP and another for everything else. Ideally you only want desired signals to pass through an amplifier which is why I filter AM & FM broadcast radio before the amp. However, I do feed the full range of the amp's outputs to all receivers. The signals are all present at all radios, then, for example, if there's an incident I can repurpose receivers for whatever channels are involved.
 
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This is pretty much my setup. One receiver locked on the county's P25 system, one "dedicated" to CHP and another for everything else. Ideally you only want desired signals to pass through an amplifier which is why I filter AM & FM broadcast radio before the amp. However, I do feed the full range of the amp's outputs to all receivers. The signals are all present at all radios, then, for example, if there's an incident I can repurpose receivers for whatever channels are involved.

I have the same idea in mind. Right now I have three radios and I'm going to go for a fourth. My office sits out enough from the San Bernardino Mountains that if there's a forest fire I should be able to hear the front of the mountain which is where they usually start. If they go down the Victorville side they don't usually last long because the sun doesn't preheat that side of the mountain. That's what a fireman friend of mine told me anyway.

My plan is to get the Austin Spectra and the 4 ft tall extension mast that's the most to make it like a base station antenna. It will just barely fit in my office under the ceiling. I found a small Christmas tree stand that should be big enough to support it without being overly big. I suppose I could sprinkle a little presents around it anyway. Lol.

If the Spectra works and improves CHP reception then I'll stop there. I know I can get the P25 system. I normally listen using the VHF repeaters so now I'm having trouble programming the P25. I don't know if I am supposed to use the mountain simulcast or use the individual ones like Strawberry and I think it's Heaps Peak and then there's Big Bear or Forest Falls which I'm not sure I can get anyway. I know not to expect perfection from inside an office.

I will try the all band preamp that's been recommended. I had previously mentioned that I could put in a variable attenuator and some thought I was talking about dialing out the noise figure. Not at all. I was talking about dialing back the gain so that if I were to get the preamp that has 20 dB gain I could dial it back so that it's just enough and not too much.

If all that doesn't work, my second plan was to get a Larson VHF low band mobile antenna and another Austin 4 foot extension with the NMO on it. I'd use that on just CHP. I can then throw in a duplexer or a triplexer and split the two antennas off. For that matter I could put in a third VHF antenna but that's going to start costing me a hell of a lot of money.

So I'll start with just the Austin Spectra and go from there. I don't expect to be able to hear the firefighters or the search and rescue guys on their handhelds anyway. I see by the database that on the new P25 system search and rescue has a whole set of frequencies now. But I know from talking with them that they've always had them and the 800 radios work like crap. So they switch to their VHF stuff. That I know I can pick up. I do a lot of hiking up there.
 

tkenny53

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You can use Mountain, east valley, Baker. These seems to be the best reception coverage for SB P25 system. Also the vhf patch channels. SB forest service HH radio channels
 
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You can use Mountain, east valley, Baker. These seems to be the best reception coverage for SB P25 system. Also the vhf patch channels. SB forest service HH radio channels
Thank you very much. I have been using the VHF patch channels but I have noted that they're limited. For example, after dispatch they're assigned a talk group with now that I know to load the mountain and East Valley into I'll be able to follow.
 

qc

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Thank you very much. I have been using the VHF patch channels but I have noted that they're limited. For example, after dispatch they're assigned a talk group with now that I know to load the mountain and East Valley into I'll be able to follow.
If most of your interest is CAL FIRE, you might want to look into OmniX Scanner Base Antenna from DPD Productions. It's not rated for Low-Band, but I can hear Several CHP dispatch channels loud and clear. It is one of the best multiband antenna that comes close to Antennacraft ST2. I regard it as one of the greatest wideband antennas, but unfortunately, it was discounted. I still have one up after 20 Years, and I can hear almost all of the CHP Golden Gate Dispatch channels on it and I don't have high. elevation
 
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