Computer&Police Question???

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ff-medic

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No. The FBI would not get in against that level of encryption without the password.

My point was simply that the NSA is probably the only agency that is able to break AES encryption, and the time and cost associated with doing so would make that an extremely unlikely situation. You would have to have done something truly incredible to make them even consider trying to brute-force the crypto.

Also, I was speaking about encryption in general, not this particular gentleman's situation.

Sooo, You are saying that there is encryption on the market that the U.S Govt cannot crack? Crypto folks put a crypto on the market , without the Govts approval / plans and policy.

Mr.Drug Lord can encrypt his files and there is no way Law Enforement can get in?
Acme Company can commit crimes , hide the evidence on the computer and the Feds can't get in?
Mr.Money Launderer can encrypt his files..and no way the Feds can get in?

If I put U.S Govt approved encryption on my computer no way the Feds can get in?

I am not being a smartazz , but I don't belive all the secrecy , hush - hush encryption that everyone so belives in. Even some firewalls are vulnerable...No need to go to the CPU or the server.

I cannot fathom encryption programs, produced for consumers as well as companys and agencys..that someone don't have a way of entering a back door or decryptiong the program. I'm not saying it can happen in a minute..or even an hour. But in simple terms.....regulation as well as laws, encryption can be cracked. It just takes time.

Even DES / AES had to get Govt approval , and be cleared by National Standards and the NSA.


FF - Medic !!

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ff-medic

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What a pain in the ***, cool, but seems like a real bit of work. What's on earth could require that level of protection? Are you working on developing the next multi billion dollar web sensation or something?

Pretty impressive but don't you now have to go make more secret dvds now that you let the secret slip? :D


Yep. My question is..what happens if you loose, or break the key that unlocks the code?

Someone has been watching to many spy movies.

FF - Medic !!!
 

Sporkupine

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Sooo, You are saying that there is encryption on the market that the U.S Govt cannot crack? Crypto folks put a crypto on the market , without the Govts approval / plans and policy.

.

Nope. I'm saying that the agencies that do have the ability to crack that kind of encryption will not invest the time and resources and talent required to do it for trivial reasons. And yes, those same agencies do indeed consider things like drug lords and money laundering trivial. They operate on a completely different level and will not waste their time on small potatoes.

And another thing, which I was thinking about so I'll just put it here...

I hate the old "well, of you have nothing to hide..." argument. It is the rallying cry for busybodies who can make no logical case but still desire to muck about in other peoples' business. And, sure as the sunrise, the next phrase is "it just makes you look suspicious..."

Just because people have a desire to not share every detail about their lives does not make them criminals. Or even suspicious, for that matter. To think otherwise is to walk on very shaky philosophical ground.

Also, we're starting to drive this particular thread a bit off the rails...
 
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ff-medic

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Nope. I'm saying that the agencies that do have the ability to crack that kind of encryption will not invest the time and resources and talent required to do it for trivial reasons. And yes, those same agencies do indeed consider things like drug lords and money laundering trivial. They operate on a completely different level and will not waste their time on small potatoes.

And another thing, which I was thinking about so I'll just put it here...

I hate the old "well, of you have nothing to hide..." argument. It is the rallying cry for busybodies who can make no logical case but still desire to muck about in other peoples' business. And, sure as the sunrise, the next phrase is "it just makes you look suspicious..."

Just because people have a desire to not share every detail about their lives does not make them criminals. Or even suspicious, for that matter. To think otherwise is to walk on very shaky philosophical ground.

Also, we're starting to drive this particular thread a bit off the rails...

One last rebuttal, then I stand down =

First..What you dislike is of no concern to me. Investigators are there to do a job. It can be easy..or it can be hard. Cooperate and get it over with..or be pain in the buttocks and drag it out.

If you commit a crime, or have been believed to have committed a crime , yes..YOU will be investigated, and it is Law Enforcements job to be snoopy. They can get a warrant, go to your bank and get your financial records, they can get your credit card statements, and your cell phone bill ; just to name a few things they have access to - - >All without you knowing or finding out..Till discovery time when the prosecutor shares his evidence with YOUR attorney. The first thing an attorney is going to do, is try to discredit everything. Statements, evidence..ect. When they can't do that..they ask the prosecutor for a plea bargain..which will not happen after the work has been put into the case, the jury has been seated, adn time has been spent.

I belive that " mucking in other peoples business " , by getting the contents off of a computer, will be the least of his worries.

You hate the " Ole well you have nothing to hide ". You are involved in a traffic stop , a cop asks to search your car and look in the trunk. He asks you to sign the paperwork that you are letting him look in the trunk. You reply " No...get a warrant , I don't want you mucking in my business." Most states..even you don't submit to a breathlizer..cause you don't want polcie mucking in your business...will get you an automatic drivers license revocation. oops. A big price to pay for " Mucky ".

Encrypted files. Finanical - personal business - and other reasons. Just because you can is not a * good * reason, although you can.

Cases can be researched and found where "Encrypted' files have been broken and the files found / read - even recently. When an individual starts thinking that they are smarter and more intelligent than the next guy, that is when it will bite them in the butt.

And yes, trivial reasons will cause an agency to crack a computer encryption, if it means putting the bad guy in jail...and most definately if information can be gathered off the computer to present the case to a Grand Jury. Small potatos lead to bigger potatos..which leads to felony convictions as well as asset seizure - therefore making it a worthwhile investigaion by everyone involved..as well as time spent in court. And the L/E agency gets the forfeited assets such as vehicles , real estate, boats..ect. Plus..Plus , media attention lets it out that there is the capability, don't " Muck Around " in this jurisdiction ; If so, you will go to prison.

" Busy bodies " help protect us. Property - lives - children - workplaces. Terrorism has written a new law in reference to the 4th amendment. And the idiot Mark Furman ( LAPD - OJ Simpson Case ) whom invoked his 5th amendment ( Protect himself from self-incrimination ) right..He had nothing to hide. Why Marsha did not O.J just walk out of the courtroom after he made that statement is beyond me. I belive that Officer Furman sealed O.J's fate of letting him free for his 5th Amendment Statement. And yet Mark had nothing to hide.


Nothing wrong with divulging information, as long as you divulge it to the right individula(s) for only the correct circumstances. I don't believe the police will take an ad out in the local paper and discuss / publish details sensitive or personal in nature. They are inquiring / investigation / asking questions in the performance of their job.That is what court is for, and why we have judges whom protect the integrity of the court, and enforce, as well as intepret laws the best way they know how.

And there is nothing " philosophical " about a crime. It happened, or it did not..Philosophy has nothing to do with it.

You can dress improperly, peculiar for a specific location.. and be suspicious, or gain an attentive persons curiosity / eye / suspicion. Quite a few things in life you can do and be suspicious and be questioned ; BUT that does not mean you have to answer Joe public citizens questions. Someone with authority and or responsibility..YES ; I believe you have to answer reasonable questions , and the person of authority / responsibilty not only has a right but a duty to inquire..again , reasonably.

One thing about me..I love children. You would belive that if it was a crime involving a child..One would be as cooperative as possible. If not, someone might be, taking away your chanve to cooperate..therefore making matters worse.

- - - - - - - Back to my tent and campfire - - - - - - - --


FF - Medic !!!
 
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poltergeisty

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What a pain in the ***, cool, but seems like a real bit of work. What's on earth could require that level of protection? Are you working on developing the next multi billion dollar web sensation or something?

Pretty impressive but don't you now have to go make more secret dvds now that you let the secret slip? :D

Yeah, it is a pain in the ***. No, I do not have to make any DVD. In fact I can rent the movie and the files for the DVD will always be the same, see. So long as I have that DVD I can decrypt my files. It's hash based.
 

slicerwizard

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a ton of nonsense
To the OP: The police are not there to help you - they already took your computer against your wishes - hello??

The only good advice you've received is to shut your trap and hire a decent lawyer ASAP. I suggest you follow it, as the cops are counting on you remaining ignorant, helpless and unrepresented.
 

KE0SKN

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ok guys let me explain Why my computer is encrypted. Before I was Disable I did have my own security company and I keep all my Business files on my computer for 7-years (Taxes, Address, Phone numbers, People We arrested, People We trespassed, Ect.) I also have my personal information on my computer ( passwords, Personal Taxes, Addresses, Phone Numbers, Family Pics, E-mail Addresses, Online Banking Information) My so called uncle never had my 17 character password with number Upper-Lower case and Symbols. But they took it anyway. I'm also a ham radio operator with all my call logs and there information stored on them too. Its not like I won't let them in my computer but the police department has a bad rap for using the information they find for there personal use. My police department has been on the news for abuse of powers, There on police abuse.com, Youtube.com.

Now my personal feeling on my uncle?
[Mod edit: keep them to yourself]

Were do my loyalties lie? My family is every-thing to me. My daughter is my life. I love her with every bone in my body. I worked long hours and almost died several time in the line of duty just to make shore she had food, clothing, roof over her head, toys, a wonderful Christmas, and any thing she wanted. The second girl I can't talk about, Not my family member.

If they want my computer they can have it, destroy it, burn it to the ground for alls I care. I just don't want the information on it use for personal gain. I don't want a law suit by my ex-clint. Being in a wheel chair and only making 740 a month on S.S.D is not much. My wife don't make much ether. A Laws suit would kill me. That why I asked this question in the first place.
 
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Sporkupine

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Mea Culpa

ok guys let me explain Why my computer is encrypted.

My friend, you don't owe us any explanation. It's your right to have encrypted info, regardless of the reasons. In fact, you have had something happen to you that is so beyond my level of experience that I'm not even qualified to comment upon it. I can only wish you luck, and my hope that everyone involved gets the justice they deserve, good and bad and otherwise. It's obvious that you're a good person who loves their family, and who can argue with that?

I would like to let you know that the debate that went on was, at least from my point of view, about encryption as a general concept, not your particular situation. I feel very bad that I did not make that more clear, and you have my apologies for turning this thread into a soapbox for one of my pet causes. I should have moved the topic.

Good luck!
 
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KE0SKN

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I'm not mad at anyone, every one has there opinion. that's all it is to me. But sometimes people will sat something with out really knowing the full story. You can't judge a book by its cover. You need to read it before saying its no good. I don't trust the system here. Bad things happen to good people, And drunk driver live. It make no scene why they do. I just don't want to have any-more trauma to my family.

Your ok by me. sporkupine.
 
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Laptop-Lizard

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I am very new here and all I can do is offer my Prayers for you and your family. This has to be the saddest and most serious situation I have ever read about in an on-line forum.

I must also say that you are a much stronger man than I am.

I have a 12 year old girl and had anything similar happened to her I am pretty certain that I would be the one in jail and the so called Uncle would already be on to the afterlife.
 

Sporkupine

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trust me I wanted too... But what good am I in jail.

Words of a wise man, right there.

I used to be in law enforcement (long ago in another life) and trust me when I say that if he's guilty, he will indeed get what's coming to him....if you get my drift.

Stay strong and stay smart, friend. You daughter needs you. If you stick to that, the rest will all work out...
 

Tim-in-TX

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To the OP: The police are not there to help you - they already took your computer against your wishes - hello??.

They are just doing their jobs, just like everyone else. Shouldn't the warrant specifically state what needs be confiscated, or, on an open warrant, doesn't the DA tells them what to look for?

True in a case of a warrant search, if you live with the perp, then the police are not there to help you. They don't know what is yours or what is his. Even when you point out things that are yours, they don't have the luxury to listen to you, they are serving a warrant on an ADDRESS, not "stuff owned only by the perp".

I am wondering why there is even a search warrant issued for a battery on a child charge anyway?



"Everyone hates a cop until they need them."
 

questnz

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I don't think Feds will be able to decrypt hard disk without password.
WebCite query result

Read this from Truecrypt forum:
TrueCrypt does not allow recovery of any encrypted data without knowing the correct password or key. We cannot recover your data because we do not know and cannot determine the password you chose or the key you generated using TrueCrypt. The only way to recover your files is to try to "crack" the password or the key, but it could take thousands or millions of years (depending on the length and quality of the password or keyfiles, on the software/hardware performance, algorithms, and other factors).


Personally most of my critical disks, Laptop, USB sticks are fully encrypted including OS, you can create hidden container within Truecrypt encrypted disk using different passphraze, even when forced to give password by the courts cops have no show to find data within hidden container.
 

RolnCode3

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I believe that people have a responsibility to protect their digital information. You lock your car up, right? Your front door when you leave the house? Why not encrypt your computers? To the OP: I agree that you don't owe anyone an explanation for encrypting your information.

Every computer I own is encrypted with Truecrypt. All external drives and USB sticks are fully encrypted or have encrypted containers on them for storing anything remotely sensitive.

I do it to protect my SSN and other sensitive information in case of theft or loss. Everything I own will be useless to anyone else. They'll have to just format the drives and not gain access to my personal information. Which is exactly what I want.

To the issue with the police. They have probably already mirrored your drives if they plan to use them as evidence. If they won't return them due to encryption it's probably because they can't confirm that they won't be rereleasing contraband or evidence.

I view it as a simple decision: provide the ability to decrypt the information and you'll get it back once they can confirm there is no evidence. Or accept that they will continue to hold them until you 1)sue or get a court order to release or 2)they break the encryption themselves (as has been stated - highly unlikely).

Sounds like a horrible situation and hope it works itself out as best can be asked.
 
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questnz

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Re TrueCrypy strenght
Hello again, I 100% agree with our friend RolnCode3, I have NOTHING to hide just protecting my privacy, my family privacy, my friends privacy and my clients privacy, something most of us sadly underestimate. As I am involved with some PC Forensic work I have number of programmes to do the job forensically analyse disks, images etc. For sake of argument I just forensically imaged my small 2 GB usb stick protected with TrueCrypt AES 256 encryption. Then opened image with another forensic program to crack the password. It shows that it will take estimated 7 month and 12 days to run !!! (without guarantee to crack) This is 2 GB stick, imagine run it on 1 TB hard drive image. Cops just don't have a stomach to do this sort of work due to time and cost involved

regards Chris
 

WayneH

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OP, you need to keep all your private life out of this thread. Please remember every forum on this site needs to be family friendly. This is a thread in the Computer forum about encryption and it needs to stay on topic. If it can't it will get closed. Based on some of the stuff you mentioned I should have deleted the thread but instead edited it out.

Think about if this LE agency saw this thread.
 
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KE0SKN

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Well guys I thank you all for your input, Comment, and thoughts and prayers. I think we stretch this topic thin. I asked a question on encryption and got my answer. I think It better that we should close on this topic... No need to drag the lame horse any farther than I have. I don't expect my computer back at all, Like I said before they can destroy it any way they want. All I want is my daughter and friend's to get there life back and to start the healing processes, and to have justice to the wrong doer.

To the Monitors and Administer of this forum. I apologize that I got out of line. It won't happen again. Posted out of anger and I do agree with you on family friendly. Again I apologize. If you want to delete this post you can...
 

RolnCode3

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Yeah, it is a pain in the ***. No, I do not have to make any DVD. In fact I can rent the movie and the files for the DVD will always be the same, see. So long as I have that DVD I can decrypt my files. It's hash based.
That's interesting. I've been a little gun-shy about using a key file. I was thinking about something that could be remotely deleted, but still worried about the keyfile being modified inadvertently.

The last external USB drive I encrypted I was going to point to a file in my Dropbox folder. If the computer and drive became lost, I could delete the file from Dropbox and the container would be toast even if they could get into Windows(OS on that computer is also encrypted) and connect to the internet. They would still need the password for the drive, but if I remotely delete the keyfile the drive is toast.

Can encrypted OS's use keyfiles as well? How could you remotely destroy that keyfile? (*edit* just looked at the user guide and system keyfiles are not supported)
 
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