Cranford To Run FirstNet Pilot Program

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mmckenna

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I can now confirm that Cranford High School completely ditched their old analog VHF radios and now use brand new FirstNet PTT devices which cannot be monitored by any scanner, as far as I know. I am unaware of any patch on NJICS for them, but if anyone comes across anything, please post. I also know the Police Captain in Cranford has expressed interest in switching the PD to primarily use this same technology.

LTE cannot be monitored on any scanner. Doesn't matter who the carrier is. It's a very wide band data emission and the voice traffic is carried in with everything else. Even if it was possible to decode it with a service monitor, communications receiver, scanner, etc. LTE is encrypted by design. Monitoring of LTE is not going to be an option.

I was doing some research and there is also a small town called Dallas, GA that has totally switched to FirstNet some time ago and cannot be monitored on any scanner, nor patched on their county's P25 system anymore. In my opinion, I do believe this voice over cellular PTT technology will eventually replace most LMR communication for public safety making our scanners totally useless. However, I think we still have a good 15-20 years (hopefully) before it really takes over everything.

Patching Push To Talk over Cellular (PTToC) is fairly easy to do. While they may not be currently doing it, it is commonly done by others.

And, I think you are right on. Most new high tier public safety radios come with LTE as an add on feature. The networks are becoming more and more robust. Non-public safety users migrating to LTE is a common and the industry knows that.
Eventually most will go to some sort of PTToC system, and traditional LMR networks will be kept in place as a fallback.
 

mmckenna

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And just wait till there is a cell outage in the area and they have no Firstnet. I surely hope they keep their old repeaters in place for just those situations.

Often you'll find that there are multiple cell sites in a given area, so one going down isn't the end of the world.
A lot of mission critical LTE equipment will accept more than one SIM card, so having service through two different carriers is an option.
Most of the equipment used will also support WiFi, so a well built out WiFi network in a school will support the handsets.

And some cell sites are built out better than LMR sites. Bigger battery systems, generators with on site fuel, ability to roll in a generator and connect, alternate backhaul, etc.

And then there's LMR system fall back for the public safety users. Schools are not that critical, in most disasters, they get evacuated fairly early on, so keeping service up for an empty school isn't that important.
 

APX8000

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They are staying on NJICS. Specialized units will get them, but they currently can use ePTT to talk over their talkgroup, which they cannot do with FirstNetPTT at the moment. So, they are staying with what they currently have. Would they like to switch, yep. But it would have to be a complete switch as going hybrid LMR and FirstNetPTT is not cost effective for them. But good luck getting buy in from everyone that surrounds them...won't happen. Maybe Captain Segway will get one...as long as he won't use it to print a parking ticket to throw over a placard like he loves to do.
 

wa8pyr

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And some cell sites are built out better than LMR sites. Bigger battery systems, generators with on site fuel, ability to roll in a generator and connect, alternate backhaul, etc.

Not around here. I'm racking my brain to think of a single cell site around here that even has a generator, much less a lot of batteries.

What we've got around here are tan boxes on the ground with the ground-based support equipment; the RF packages are atop the tower and connected to the ground equipment via CAT-whatever cables. No shelter or generator, just a plug on the side of the tan box to plug a generator into. If they have a UPS it probably won't keep the site running for long, especially if it has aviation beacons.

If we have a massive area-wide outage I don't figure the cell network around here will last long.
 

GTR8000

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The cell sites in the NY/NJ area are generally "alright", but not nearly as robust as most of the true public safety grade LMR sites. I'm not totally dismissing FirstNet or Frontline, but they're never going to be as robust as a properly built out LMR system. It's nice to have LTE as another tool in the toolbox, but to completely replace LMR en masse? Nope.
 

wa8pyr

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The cell sites in the NY/NJ area are generally "alright", but not nearly as robust as most of the true public safety grade LMR sites. I'm not totally dismissing FirstNet or Frontline, but they're never going to be as robust as a properly built out LMR system. It's nice to have LTE as another tool in the toolbox, but to completely replace LMR en masse? Nope.

Concur. My big problem with LTE versus LTR is that I always know what my sites are capable of and their state of maintenance. I can't say the same for cellular sites, and given their track record of prioritizing profit over people, I wouldn't be too confident about a private entity doing anything other than the bare minimum.

The FCC used to require that cellular sites owned by common carriers have generators, but I think that requirement went out the window a long time ago, or at least is mostly observed in the breach.
 

mmckenna

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Not around here. I'm racking my brain to think of a single cell site around here that even has a generator, much less a lot of batteries.

What we've got around here are tan boxes on the ground with the ground-based support equipment; the RF packages are atop the tower and connected to the ground equipment via CAT-whatever cables. No shelter or generator, just a plug on the side of the tan box to plug a generator into. If they have a UPS it probably won't keep the site running for long, especially if it has aviation beacons.

If we have a massive area-wide outage I don't figure the cell network around here will last long.

The FCC has, or at least had, some rules regarding battery back up for cell sites.
Here in California, the PUC has a requirement for backup generator at most sites.
I've found cellular to be pretty reliable, at least locally.

And I'd agree, public safety sites are usually built out better than cellular sites. Non-public safety LMR/ham rarely are.

For school administrators, cell is good enough for most uses. If things really go crappy, no one is going to be relying on school administrators to save the day.
 

otobmark

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I’m not up on the down in the weeds parts of how FirstNet works so maybe my concern is not an issue. I was offered an early version of a preferred cell number that gave me basically ruthless preemption over regular cellular users. I was in a room full of EM people and they were all eager to have it. I was the only one who turned it down because I felt it was unethical. The idea that the paid professionals are superior is deadly. “We are from the government and we are here to help” joke. Fouci is highest paid government employee—make of it what you will. In an emergency PS has its own communications systems and infrastructure. Civilians have only cellphones to communicate and solve problems (& save lives) for themselves while waiting for a professional to show up, if ever. The idea that PS is going to steal their bandwidth when they need it most is unconscionable to me. The carriers will argue that they will increase capacity to cover the preferred clients but as we should know from experience they will devise a plan that leverages the normal channels to fill in for unusual load from the preferred clients (an emergency). It’s not a true parallel system from my out of date understanding-please correct me if that’s not the case. A system based on confiscation bothers me. Some states post Katrina have enacted anti confiscation laws. Above comments are philosophical not a technical debate on my part.

mmck comment on ham repeaters being less reliable is probably true in general but a few hurricanes back a large area flooded out and all PS sites went silent. Some had tower equipment rooms flood and others just ran out of generator fuel and fuel trucks couldn’t access them because of roads under water. Those sites were engineered and built by professionals. A few ham repeaters remained on air throughout and some local hams had a lot of excitement riding around with fire and police. Their repeaters had solar backup and their radio cabinets were mounted up on the towers rather than collocated in flooded PS radio rooms on the ground. I would bet the repeaters being up the tower had more to do with hardline cost than flood proofing. This is just an anecdotal story about when things don’t go according to plan. Since, flood plane sites have put in elevated platforms/buildings to place repeaters. Fuel delivery policy adjusted as well. Failure’s since have been rare and usually related to microwave backbone (Dishes knocked out of alignment). We are now prepared for the last battle but what about the next (malicious, act of terrorism, etc)? If I’m aware of some of the many weaknesses to trs then I must consider that some bad people know much more than me.

I like amateur radio and think it should be a part of every EM plan. That said, if it’s down to amateur radio to save the day then people should be fired (and the people who hired them).
 

mmckenna

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I’m not up on the down in the weeds parts of how FirstNet works so maybe my concern is not an issue. I was offered an early version of a preferred cell number that gave me basically ruthless preemption over regular cellular users. I was in a room full of EM people and they were all eager to have it. I was the only one who turned it down because I felt it was unethical.


Ruthless preemption is pretty extreme, and I would agree with you on the ethics part. However, I do have a FirstNet phone and am happy to have it.
There are levels of preemption, not everyone has the same level. Also, it only preempts others when there are no other resources available.
It's not intended as an "I'm better than the general public" thing, it's intended as a resource when the message has to get through. However, FirstNet/AT&T seems to be peddling this to damn near everyone, including teachers, and it's getting a bit silly.

To be fair and spread the blame around, Verizon has a similar service, so avoiding AT&T won't protect anyone.

WPS is another service, but it allows the end user to select it when needed. It also doesn't kick anyone else off, it just bumps you to the head of the line. I have WPS/GETS in addition to the FirstNet phone, and there has been one or two instances where WPS/GETS got me through when needed.

Fouci is highest paid government employee—make of it what you will.

Well, since you brought it up, he does have an impressive list of qualifications, experience, degrees and the like, and that usually results in higher pay in the civilized world. Kind of like a brain surgeon getting paid just slightly more than a 17 year old deep frying french fries at a fast food joint.

In an emergency PS has its own communications systems and infrastructure. Civilians have only cellphones to communicate and solve problems (& save lives) for themselves while waiting for a professional to show up, if ever. The idea that PS is going to steal their bandwidth when they need it most is unconscionable to me. The carriers will argue that they will increase capacity to cover the preferred clients but as we should know from experience they will devise a plan that leverages the normal channels to fill in for unusual load from the preferred clients (an emergency). It’s not a true parallel system from my out of date understanding-please correct me if that’s not the case. A system based on confiscation bothers me. Some states post Katrina have enacted anti confiscation laws. Above comments are philosophical not a technical debate on my part.

It's not really confiscation. The resources belong to the carrier and they get to do with them what they want.

As for FirstNet and public safety preemption, remember that cell sites only cover a certain area, so a public safety user pulling preemption is only going to impact those inside that cell. Thats' a pretty rare case that it would kick anyone else off. Since these systems use LTE, even for voice, it means that someone might get slightly slower access to Amazon, not that they are going to get kicked off a 911 call. To me, that's a good use of preemption, but again, I agree, the optics of it can look bad to the average consumer.
mmck comment on ham repeaters being less reliable is probably true in general but a few hurricanes back a large area flooded out and all PS sites went silent. Some had tower equipment rooms flood and others just ran out of generator fuel and fuel trucks couldn’t access them because of roads under water. Those sites were engineered and built by professionals.

Professionals, yes. Lowest bidder, also.
Those sorts of instances were brought up at various IWCE/APCO conferences. Yeah, systems can fail, but there are back up resources. The issue is usually the training and making sure the end user knows how to get to those resources.
One of the issues with refueling the sites was access. The others were the trucks getting "hijacked" by other agencies to fill tanks at their sites. One of the hurricanes it came down to law enforcement escorting the fuel trucks to the site to make sure they got their and not sniped by another agency.

A few ham repeaters remained on air throughout and some local hams had a lot of excitement riding around with fire and police. Their repeaters had solar backup and their radio cabinets were mounted up on the towers rather than collocated in flooded PS radio rooms on the ground. I would bet the repeaters being up the tower had more to do with hardline cost than flood proofing.

Yeah, probably. Also, in many areas, there's a ton of ham repeaters, so one or more staying up is a possibility.
The public safety system managers learn from this stuff though.
Our agency has access not just to several VHF systems, 800 systems, but also cellular, satellite and HF. Losing the traditional LMR systems isn't the end of operations. It's the end of easy operations, and that usually takes out the guys that were not paying attention the day they covered radio use in the academy.

This is just an anecdotal story about when things don’t go according to plan. Since, flood plane sites have put in elevated platforms/buildings to place repeaters. Fuel delivery policy adjusted as well. Failure’s since have been rare and usually related to microwave backbone (Dishes knocked out of alignment). We are now prepared for the last battle but what about the next (malicious, act of terrorism, etc)? If I’m aware of some of the many weaknesses to trs then I must consider that some bad people know much more than me.

Sounds like we may be talking about the same hurricane. I'm on the west coast, so usually I hear about this at the conferences. I've got different challenges over here.

I like amateur radio and think it should be a part of every EM plan. That said, if it’s down to amateur radio to save the day then people should be fired (and the people who hired them).

Yes. Ham radio is a good resource and it can be used.
Where it usually runs afoul is when it is not coordinated and is just a bunch of random dudes with Baofengs trying to save the day. There needs to be training, training and more training (not just passing a 35 question multiple choice test). There needs to be coordination and there needs to be clearly defined roles. It's absolutely a useful tool in the toolbox. But like you said, if it gets to the point that it is the only remaining tool, there's bigger issues going on and a ham with a radio probably isn't going to be able to save that day.

We had a major telecommunications outage here about 15 years back. They deployed hams to the local hospitals. The hospitals had access to the HEARS radio system, so was easily in contact with other hospitals in the area. The ham role was for off loading the HEARS system and handling non-critical administrative traffic.
 

mmckenna

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This is just an anecdotal story about when things don’t go according to plan. Since, flood plane sites have put in elevated platforms/buildings to place repeaters. Fuel delivery policy adjusted as well.

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure we're talking about the same incident.

I remember them saying they went as far as adding lift kits and slightly taller tires on some of the service trucks to give them some better water fording ability. Still trying to work that into my budget….
 

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Professionals, yes. Lowest bidder, also.
Actually the best and brightest from Schaumburg. At that time my state was their largest TRS system (I think geographically) and in retrospect we were a beta test. Initial rssi settings they specified would have had us putting up a site every 10 feet 😟. Local radio engineer found a fatal flaw and M sent down lawyers to threaten him not to disclose anything. They didn’t want their stock to tank.

I have family LA county—my son works at CBS, but we still love him. Renting a place there for all of this June. Briefly owned a home in San Diego (Rancho Bernardo) decades back. Always wanted to explore/photograph the remote areas of CA but I’m not young anymore..
 

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When talking about pre-emption and Band 14, keep in mind that the spectrum is owned by the FirstNet Authority (aka US Government) and not AT&T. AT&T doesn't have much to say about their commercial users getting kicked off of that band, which was constructed for public safety (and anyone else who can loosely attach themselves as quasi-public safety). Additionally, all FirstNet certified devices will by default prefer band 14 and will only use other available bands when band 14 falls below a specified threshold. Most consumer users are provisioned the opposite way, instead preferring and band other than band 14.
 
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