Kenwood: CTCSS vs TONE

[FIREUP]

Ok gang,
Well, to about 99.999% of you are gonna think, "man, this boys missing some really basic steps/components/ideals of Amature radio here". For some reason, I've developed some sort of mental block that's not allowing me to really decipher the difference between CTCSS and Tone Function. Here's just one of a few reason I'm asking about all this. I recently purchased a new, Kenwood TM-281A 144Mhz radio for use in our motorhome. It's a simple, 2M single band radio and I knew that going in. Ok, I'm trying to learn how to MANUALLY program it and have the 1/2" thick manual in front of me. Well, it seems that, in not too long of time, I kind-a got the system down to where programming a repeater, and all needed parameters, wasn't too hard to get into this single celled brain of mine.

Well, I figured out what buttons to push, at the correct time, and knobs to turn, also at the correct time, to what appears, to be, about 20 "correctly installed repeater frequencies. Now, here's where it gets confusing/frustrating. I programmed the "T" for Tone Function in each and every frequency. But, I also programmed the CTCSS frequency for each and every repeater frequency. But, on page 24 of the manual, in a small "note" block, it clearly states, "you cannot use the Tone Function AND the CTCSS at the same time". And it goes on to say that if the CTCSS has been enabled and you also use the "TONE Function", the CTCSS will automatically be disabled.

Then, if you cruise on over to the CTCSS page, page 46, it speaks about the CTCSS system and basically states that it's for allowing only calls from which you want to hear and not from folks using the same frequency. Well, I'm confused. Since I'm not a veteran HAM, I'm still learning and thought I had some of this stuff down. But, apparently not. I was always kinda lead to believe that, the CTCSS (Continuous Tone Coded Squelch System) is/was used to provide a sub-audible tone, along with your transmit frequency, that "opens" a repeater so it will REPEAT, what you're transmitting.

Now, for the life of me, in this very nicely printed, somewhat nicely organised Kenwood manual, it only tells you HOW TO TURN THE TONE FUNCTION ON. It does NOT tell you what the Tone function is for. I have read this manual almost from cover to cover (even though the English part only goes to page 67 or so) and I cannot find the explanation of the Tone Function. In many online findings, I read that, the CTCSS and TONE, are one and the same. And that, it appears that the terminology combines both the CTCSS and TONE, to be the same. Yet, as stated, my manual, TWICE, on two different pages, states you CANNOT use or, enable both in the same frequency because, one will cancel the other.

So, I guess I need to go back to kindergarten of HAM to get the basics down. And, if I screwed this new radio up in all of the 20 repeater frequency programming, then I quite possibly goofed up in programming my Jeeps recently installed ICOM IC2000, my new Baofeng UF-5R-8 watt and, my older Yeasu VX-170 HT. That's gonna be a lot of re-programming. Help.
Scott

 

[prcguy]

CTCSS is often called tone or tone squelch or PL, which is a Motorola trademark, etc. These are used for repeater access in the US and the tones are not audible in your speaker when properly implemented. On the other hand many European repeaters use an audible tone burst for access and 1750Hz is a common tone frequency. I suspect the tone function in your radio is a tone burst for European use and CTCSS is of course what you want.

 

[ko6jw_2]

OK, I looked at the TM-281A manual and even though I have an Extra class license and have been a ham for 25+ years, I'm slightly confused too. They use the word "tone" in different contexts. One type of tone is a 1750 Hz tone burst that is used to open some repeaters, except that no one does that. It may be still used in Europe, but I've never encountered a repeater in the US that used it. However, you wouldn't use CTCSS or DCS with that type of tone. Just ignore it. You need to program the correct CTCSS frequency for the repeater that you want to access. CTCSS can be both encode and decode on some repeaters. Only encode is required. Decode is handy when there is another repeater using the come pair in range and you don't want to hear it. DCS is used widely in commercial and public safety, but rarely in ham radio. It is basically the same as CTCSS except that it is digital.

Someone should rewrite the Kenwood manual. By the way it's ham not HAM. Ham is not an acronym. It's more of a description.

 

[AK9R]

For purposes of accessing repeaters in the U.S., you should focus on page 24 of the manual. As you press [F] then [CALL], the radio will cycle through "Off", "Tone", "CTCSS", "DCS", and back to "Off" mode. The Tone mode is indicated on the display with "T"; the CTCSS mode is indicated on the display with "CT"; the DCS mode is indicated on the display with "DCS" all as shown on page 10.

When the radio is in Tone mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone, also known as "PL" tone, when the radio is transmitting. In this mode, your radio transmit a tone, but does not require a tone on receive.

When the radio is in CTCSS mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone when the radio is transmitting and it will require a CTCSS tone on the received signal in order to open the squelch on your radio when it's receiving. In this mode, the same tone is transmitted by your radio and your radio requires that tone on receive.

Any discussion of the 1750 Hz tone burst generally does not apply in the U.S. This is more commonly used in Europe, but there are always exceptions.

If the repeater you are trying to access requires a CTCSS or PL tone, at a minimum, you need to set your radio to Tone mode and select the correct tone in Hertz (88.5, 100.0, 107.2, etc.). If the repeater transmits a CTCSS tone, you can set your radio to CTCSS mode, but that's generally not necessary unless you are operating in a strong RF environment where your radio is dealing with interfering and intermodulating signals. Note that on this radio, the transmit and receive tones must be the same.

 

[chief21]

Think of CTCSS as two keys... one key (Tone/encode) that allows your radio to access a repeater, and another key (CTCSS/decode) that allows your radio to access a repeater but also locks your receiver until a similar tone is received. For access to most amateur repeaters, you only need to use the "Tone" (encode) function (indicated by a single T on the display). You also need to set the correct Tone Frequency (probably in a separate menu). Do not use the CTCSS (decode) function. If you use CTCSS, you probably won't be able to receive the repeater, since many amateur repeaters do not transmit the necessary CTCSS tone to open your receiver.

 

[KB3KBR]

For purposes of accessing repeaters in the U.S., you should focus on page 24 of the manual. As you press [F] then [CALL], the radio will cycle through "Off", "Tone", "CTCSS", "DCS", and back to "Off" mode. The Tone mode is indicated on the display with "T"; the CTCSS mode is indicated on the display with "CT"; the DCS mode is indicated on the display with "DCS" all as shown on page 10.

When the radio is in Tone mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone, also known as "PL" tone, when the radio is transmitting. In this mode, your radio transmit a tone, but does not require a tone on receive.

When the radio is in CTCSS mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone when the radio is transmitting and it will require a CTCSS tone on the received signal in order to open the squelch on your radio when it's receiving. In this mode, the same tone is transmitted by your radio and your radio requires that tone on receive.

Any discussion of the 1750 Hz tone burst generally does not apply in the U.S. This is more commonly used in Europe, but there are always exceptions.

If the repeater you are trying to access requires a CTCSS or PL tone, at a minimum, you need to set your radio to Tone mode and select the correct tone in Hertz (88.5, 100.0, 107.2, etc.). If the repeater transmits a CTCSS tone, you can set your radio to CTCSS mode, but that's generally not necessary unless you are operating in a strong RF environment where your radio is dealing with interfering and intermodulating signals. Note that on this radio, the transmit and receive tones must be the same.

^^^This and on page 19 it shows the menu selections you need. I just reprogrammed my dads yesterday and had to re-enable the CTCSS option as the repeater I was programming is a Yaesu System Fusion and we use it for both Analog and C4FM and use a tone so analog only users aren't blasted with digital noise. So for that repeater I had to push F Call to get to CT and then change menu 3. If I was just programming a normal repeater I'd just use T and menu 2.

 

[ramal121]

Yes and yes. Simply Tone is encode only and CTCSS is encode and decode. DCS is always encode and decode.

 

[bharvey2]

For purposes of accessing repeaters in the U.S., you should focus on page 24 of the manual. As you press [F] then [CALL], the radio will cycle through "Off", "Tone", "CTCSS", "DCS", and back to "Off" mode. The Tone mode is indicated on the display with "T"; the CTCSS mode is indicated on the display with "CT"; the DCS mode is indicated on the display with "DCS" all as shown on page 10.

When the radio is in Tone mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone, also known as "PL" tone, when the radio is transmitting. In this mode, your radio transmit a tone, but does not require a tone on receive.

When the radio is in CTCSS mode, it will transmit a CTCSS tone when the radio is transmitting and it will require a CTCSS tone on the received signal in order to open the squelch on your radio when it's receiving. In this mode, the same tone is transmitted by your radio and your radio requires that tone on receive.

Any discussion of the 1750 Hz tone burst generally does not apply in the U.S. This is more commonly used in Europe, but there are always exceptions.

If the repeater you are trying to access requires a CTCSS or PL tone, at a minimum, you need to set your radio to Tone mode and select the correct tone in Hertz (88.5, 100.0, 107.2, etc.). If the repeater transmits a CTCSS tone, you can set your radio to CTCSS mode, but that's generally not necessary unless you are operating in a strong RF environment where your radio is dealing with interfering and intermodulating signals. Note that on this radio, the transmit and receive tones must be the same.

W9BU that's am great answer to the Tone/CTCSS/DCS question that often troubles many when programming their radios. It should be a "Sticky" One thing I'd add is that some radios allow different CTCSS tones on transmit and receive.

 

[FIREUP]

Wow,
As usual, you guys are GREAT! First, I want to thank ALL OF YOU for getting into this discussion and helping me. I kinda consider myself somewhat average in terms of grasping even some basic technical stuff. But, as much as the manual for that radio THINKS it has shown the differences in specific terms, to me, it's just not that clear. I especially want to thank those of you that have taken the time to either read or go through that Kenwood TM281 manual and read, what I read. Yes, I see where, if you push [F] then push CALL repeatedly and get varios displays of "T" or, "CT"(Continuous Tone Code Squelch System), OFF and I think, one more.

But, to me, the manual is just not that clear on EXACT programming due to again, what I construe as a bit fuzzy descriptions of terminology. Now, again, to many and or most of you, you might be thinking, "man, this dude is a MORON". And I don't fault you for thinking that way. I'm sure that, one of these days/hours/minutes, when someone somehow gets through the tar-pit mud brain of mine and clears things up, I'm gonna say, "Ohhhhhhh, I get it now!!!!!!!!!!!"

So, with all that crap being said, one thing that I don't see in that manual, or any other manual I have for all the other radios is, you CANNOT go back and correct ANY PROGRAMMING function, of an individual channel/frequency that is logged into memory already. In other words, if you've setup a bunch of frequencies, especially repeater ones, and you've done like I did and programmed a "T" for tone mode, AND, a CTCSS mode, you CANNOT go back and eliminate one side, either the "T" or the CTCSS. You can temporarily but, when you do it, it's only available for that minute. Then, if you turn the dial to change frequencies, and go back to the one you just eliminated the T on, the T is back!!

So, to me, what this all means is, in order to correct any and all the improperly programmed repeater frequencies, I have to RESET ALL when turning that radio which, erases everything I've programmed, correct? Now, that's not the end of the world. I'm retired and what the heck else do I have to do?

Folks, please be patient with this old man. I was a career fireman for well over 30+ years. I've been a welder, wood worker, designer, fabricator, mechanic, have my own commercial sewing machine, and lots of other accomplishments. But, electricity/ham etc. is for some reason, just tough for me to wrap my head around. I do want to learn and enjoy this "hobby". I especially want to get into "linked" repeaters so I can talk to buddies in other states, if possible. Thank again so much for trying to help me here. You cannot imagine how much I appreciate your help here.
Scott

 

[bharvey2]

Fireup, are you using a computer to program your radio? From my experience, Kenwood's programming software is pretty intuitive and easy to use. Kenwood provides free programming software for your radio on their website. Programming cables can be DIY'd if you're up for the challenge or purchased for a reasonable cost.

 

[AK9R]

No, you don't need to reset the entire radio to change the programming of one channel. If you are just changing the tone, make the changes while you have your already-programmed channel on the screen, and then save that back to the same memory.

 

[bharvey2]

No, you don't need to reset the entire radio to change the programming of one channel. If you are just changing the tone, make the changes while you have your already-programmed channel on the screen, and then save that back to the same memory.

The OP may be talking about editing an existing channel via front panel programming. I asked if he uses programming software but haven't heard back.

 

[byndhlptom]

If your radio has a "write Mem channel to VFO" function, that can be used to correct an error (my kenwood 742 has this)

Just write the memory channel to VFO (that copies all channel settings), make changes and then write back to the memory channel.

$.02

 

[FIREUP]

Fireup, are you using a computer to program your radio? From my experience, Kenwood's programming software is pretty intuitive and easy to use. Kenwood provides free programming software for your radio on their website. Programming cables can be DIY'd if you're up for the challenge or purchased for a reasonable cost.

The only computer programming I've done and, are equipped to do so on is my Baofeng UV-5R-8 watt. I don't have the cables for the Yeasu VX-170 or, the ICOM IC200 or, the new Kenwood TM281. I really don't mind doing manual programming. It helps, or is supposed to, me learn the radios better and quicker
Scott

No, you don't need to reset the entire radio to change the programming of one channel. If you are just changing the tone, make the changes while you have your already-programmed channel on the screen, and then save that back to the same memory.

WB9BU,
I most certainly appreciate your advice on "reprogramming" an individual preset memory channel. This is one of those things that, like anything else in the features and procedures, you have to learn and practice. A recently found "Elmer" just showed me today on how to reprogram a memory channel, on one of my radios. Need lots of practice. Thanks again.
Scott

The OP may be talking about editing an existing channel via front panel programming. I asked if he uses programming software but haven't heard back.

bharvey2
As stated above, of the four radios I have, the Baofeng UV-5R-8 watt is the only one I have a cable for. All the others I've manually programmed. Still in the learning process. I just need to learn these radios and all their features and steps.
Scott

If your radio has a "write Mem channel to VFO" function, that can be used to correct an error (my kenwood 742 has this)

Just write the memory channel to VFO (that copies all channel settings), make changes and then write back to the memory channel.

$.02

byndhlptom,

Yes Sir, one of the radios does have the ability to send a memory channel to VFO. As stated above, I'm learning. I will eventually get this.

To all, again, very, very much appreciated all your help here. I'm slow at this but, I'm not gonna give up.
Scott

 

[chief21]

In other words, if you've setup a bunch of frequencies, especially repeater ones, and you've done like I did and programmed a "T" for tone mode, AND, a CTCSS mode, you CANNOT go back and eliminate one side, either the "T" or the CTCSS. You can temporarily but, when you do it, it's only available for that minute. Then, if you turn the dial to change frequencies, and go back to the one you just eliminated the T on, the T is back!!

I think your past experience with the Baofeng is showing. What you describe is how many of the Chinese radios work. The Kenwood radios, like most Japanese brands, are more "polished" and will allow you to make channel option changes (like Tone, CTCSS, etc) from the keyboard or the menu and most (all?) of them will "stick". It's usually only necessary to re-write a memory channel when you change the memory channel basic frequency information.

 

[FIREUP]

I think your past experience with the Baofeng is showing. What you describe is how many of the Chinese radios work. The Kenwood radios, like most Japanese brands, are more "polished" and will allow you to make channel option changes (like Tone, CTCSS, etc) from the keyboard or the menu and most (all?) of them will "stick". It's usually only necessary to re-write a memory channel when you change the memory channel basic frequency information.

Chief,
You are absolutely correct Sir. As stated, I'm learning. I dug around in my Yeasu manual earlier this evening and found out how to transfer a memory channel to VFO and then, edit it. Then, transfer it back to memory, YAHOOOOO! It worked, for all 25 frequencies I had programmed in it. I even figured out how to eliminate a duplicate frequency/memory on that Yeasu VX-170. Sometimes the instructions in the manual are just not that clear but, with a little experimentation, I got it. Next, comes the editing of the channels in the ICOM IC2000 that are all wrong in our Jeep. Oh well, it's a learning experience for sure. Sure get to know the radios from this.
Scott