Digital voice encryption

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bill4long

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That's not my point. My point is, there are some technical reasons why a data stream might need to be encrypted for purposes other than to obscure the message. In those cases, encryption across Part 97 frequencies would be permissible with appropriate notation in the station record.

I used the mesh networks as an example of radios that probably scramble the payload , on top of any other WEP (or whatever) encryption protocols.


I don't know about any others, but HSMM-MESH does not use encryption. And users are advised to not use WEP for authentication since it encrypts the password. Encryption is not legal on amateur radio frequencies and Part 97 makes no exceptions, except for certain kinds of telemetry outside the scope of this discussion. There is nothing in Part 97 about exceptions if you log your encryption in your station record.
 
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bill4long

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That's the problem, it's impossible to build your own without licensing from a single source (buying the chip/radio is licensing).

The AMBE+2 vocoder is a $20 part, quantity one.

Or you could buy a Radioddity GD-77 for DMR Tier-2 radio for about $70.

If you are interested in open-source, non-proprietary digital voice, that is comparable to the AMBE codec you could try FreeDV. I've tried it and it works nicely. Some people use it on HF, particularly 20 meters. I've used in on 40 meters as well. Any SSB radio with an audio interface will work with it.

https://freedv.org/

FCC is making a mistake in this regard, people should be vigilant about this problem and not buy into single source hardware.

Write them a letter. It will go straight into the trash can.

Except people say Ooh! Ahh! and ignore the technical aspects of their rights taken away, being forced to pay "taxes" to DVSI.

If using AMBE codecs does not appeal to you, fine. Go do something else.
 
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zz0468

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Read 97.309(b), then read 97.311.

97.309 specifically mentions "unspecified digital codes" and retention of station records.

97.311 is more directly related to spread spectrum.

Both sections state that the purpose must not be to obscure communication. Both sections would allow the use of a radio that uses a proprietary scrambler to create a consistent emissions mask, which is all I'm talking about anyway.

And many radios do exactly that, without you even knowing.


I don't know about any others, but HSMM-MESH does not use encryption. And users are advised to not use WEP for authentication since it encrypts the password. Encryption is not legal on amateur radio frequencies and Part 97 makes no exceptions, except for certain kinds of telemetry outside the scope of this discussion. There is nothing in Part 97 about exceptions if you log your encryption in your station record.
 

bill4long

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Read 97.309(b), then read 97.311.

97.309 specifically mentions "unspecified digital codes" and retention of station records.

97.311 is more directly related to spread spectrum.

Both sections state that the purpose must not be to obscure communication. Both sections would allow the use of a radio that uses a proprietary scrambler to create a consistent emissions mask, which is all I'm talking about anyway.

An unspecified digital code does not equate to encryption. FreeDV falls unto this category. If there is a key that is required to decrypt not publically available, then it obscured for the purposes of Part 97. Nothing you cited changes that.

And many radios do exactly that, without you even knowing.

Provide an example.
 

zz0468

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An unspecified digital code does not equate to encryption. FreeDV falls unto this category. If there is a key that is required to decrypt not publically available, then it obscured for the purposes of Part 97. Nothing you cited changes that..

Sure it does. If the scrambling(encryption) is a proprietary algorithm hard coded into mod/demod stage of a radio, there isn't a public key, per se. Demodulation requires the proprietary demod stage with its proprietary algorithm.

You won't get an Aviat 11.250 GHz 256 QAM radio to talk to an Ericsson 11.250 GHz 256 QAM radio to talk to each other because, among other things, they use different scrambling schemes.

Provide an example.

No.

Rather than provide a rather exhaustive list, I refer you to a short, easy to read blog post explaining why scrambling, essentially encryption, is inserted into virtually every data transport device out there.

https://ratnuu.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/why-scrambler/
 

jonwienke

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And all of this discussion of encryption is pointless, because encryption cannot and will not solve the problems of impersonation and jamming by unauthorized users. The correct solution is an authentication infrastructure that uses public/private authentication keys to securely validate authorized users and prevent unauthorized access. Each user has their own key, so that eliminates the problem of simultaneously keeping an encryption key secure while distributing it to tens or hundreds of thousands of users. When you share a secret with 100,000 people, it's no longer a secret.

Digital authentication does not require message traffic to be encrypted, so there is no issue with legality of encryption on ham radio. You still have to update every radio out there to support digital authentication, build the authentication infrastructure into every repeater, and securely deliver each user their individual authentication key. That's likely more of a hassle than the trouble caused by the occasional spoofer/jammer, but that is the only way to solve the problem. Not encryption.
 
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DaveNF2G

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I agree with jonwienke. I would further add that zz0468 simply does not understand what constitutes encryption.
 

zz0468

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I agree with jonwienke. I would further add that zz0468 simply does not understand what constitutes encryption.

Actually, I do. You'll note that what I'm talking about, I've been referring to as scrambling. It's essentially the same thing, applying a pseudo random number seed to serial data in order to randomise the contents. It can't be demodulated without knowing that random number seed on the receiving end. Isn't that all encryption really is?

My point all along is that unspecified unreadable coding is allowed on the amateur bands under the provisions I referenced yesterday.

You're free to insult me, or disagree, but what I've stated is fact. Your opinion won't change it.

And I agree with jonweinke, as well.

Carry on.
 

bill4long

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You won't get an Aviat 11.250 GHz 256 QAM radio to talk to an Ericsson 11.250 GHz 256 QAM radio to talk to each other because, among other things, they use different scrambling schemes... Rather than provide a rather exhaustive list

I didn't ask for an exhaustive list, but rather "an example" in response to your statement that, "And many radios do exactly that, without you even knowing." And you provided some obscure microwave transceivers.

I refer you to a short, easy to read blog post explaining why scrambling, essentially encryption, is inserted into virtually every data transport device out there.

Virtually every "data transport device"? How is this relevant to amateur radio?

And many radios do exactly that, without you even knowing.

Since I don't use microwave transceivers on amateur radio, and I've never known anyone who does in 40 years, "many radios" seems irrelevant and misleading. Given that scamblers are used in microwaves for the purpose of smoothing out the signal, I understand why it would be desireable. And given that it's not scrambled "for the purposes of obscuring" as the regs specify, I can buy that. However, this doesn't seem relevant to the topic at hand. Encryption "for the purposes of obscuring" is expressly not allowed.

So again:
I used the mesh networks as an example of radios that probably scramble the payload , on top of any other WEP (or whatever) encryption protocols.

It isn't allowed HSMM-MESH. And it isn't allowed on any digital voice mode. Both of those would be encrypting "for the purposes of obscuring", which is expressly not allowed.
 
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zz0468

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Virtually every "data transport device"? How is this relevant to amateur radio?

Because many commercial products used in mesh networks and point to point radios for repeater linking employ that technique. Go back to my original post on the topic, where I responded to a blanket statement that encryption is not allowed. I'm simply pointing out that in some circumstances, strictly speaking, it actually is OK.

Most people aren't aware of what's done to their data between the Ethernet port and the antenna. By the time it gets to the feedline, it bears no resemblance to what went in that Ethernet port. But it will when it gets out the other end. Unless the radio is using an open standard like 802.11, that randomization of the data is, for all practical purposes, undecipherable except by an identical radio. And hams are using these things legally.

That's all. I'm done here. Carry on.
 

WX4JCW

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smh, this is why hotspots became so popular because most hams don't want to deal with stiff collared repeater owners, are incidents of jamming/spoofing so high that this is necessary, or is it just another tool to make certain modes the cool kids only club, not really fostering any kind of true ham spirit, the repeater owners cry no one is using the repeaters and blame hotspots, but when you do use a repeater they don't want the operator to actually use it, the attitudes in this hobby can be childish at times
 

N4DES

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The correct solution is an authentication infrastructure that uses public/private authentication keys to securely validate authorized users and prevent unauthorized access.

I'm in total agreement, If this authentication key is tied to say something like your personal FRN on the FCC database it could then create a unique key allowing access (providing your an operator in the US).

Encryption the over the air signal is never going to happen as the FCC has made that very clear, but even if it did it wouldn't decrease jammers. Heck the last few cases that the FCC filed orders and fines with were from our own ranks.
 

bill4long

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Because many commercial products used in mesh networks and point to point radios for repeater linking employ that technique. Go back to my original post on the topic, where I responded to a blanket statement that encryption is not allowed. I'm simply pointing out that in some circumstances, strictly speaking, it actually is OK.

Most people aren't aware of what's done to their data between the Ethernet port and the antenna. By the time it gets to the feedline, it bears no resemblance to what went in that Ethernet port. But it will when it gets out the other end. Unless the radio is using an open standard like 802.11, that randomization of the data is, for all practical purposes, undecipherable except by an identical radio. And hams are using these things legally.

That's all. I'm done here. Carry on.

My final word (hopefully): I have no experience with microwave transcievers and was unaware of the scramling technique. (Kind of similar to dithering in music production for the same purpose, which I am familiar with.) Given Part 97, it would appear you are correct if the transport layer uses a scrambling technique to level out the transmission that is not for the purpose of obscuring. However, encryption/scrambling is not permitted at the data level. So to clarify for anyone interested, as I said prior, HSMM-MESH does not use encryption. And by that I mean data level encryption, since that would be for the purpose of obscuring and not transmission quality. Users are likewise advised to not use WEP for authentication since it encrypts the password for obscuring purposes. The scrambling-for-transport-quality technique has no relevance to DMR/DStar/Fusion/P25 digital voice modes.
 

bill4long

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I'm in total agreement, If this authentication key is tied to say something like your personal FRN on the FCC database it could then create a unique key allowing access (providing your an operator in the US). Encryption the over the air signal is never going to happen as the FCC has made that very clear, but even if it did it wouldn't decrease jammers. Heck the last few cases that the FCC filed orders and fines with were from our own ranks.

A) This might slow QRMers down but it wouldn't stop them if they were determined, because it's relatively easy to get a packet sniffer and dump the packet contents of all the digital voice modes. The "unique key" would be easy to discover. The only way this might be somewhat workable as a deterrent to QRMing is if the unique key were associated with a particular IP address for, say, Brandmeister or DMRplus, since they are internet based. But that would only work if your IP never changes. Many, if not most, out there on those hot spots are using internet connection that have dynamic IP addresses, especially WIFI via cell phone. If the "unique key" was salted via some handshaking protocol that could work. But DMR doesn't have any such protocol. That's a radical change. Although such authentication could become part of Brandmeister and DMRplus rather easily. But the whole question is rather moot for those systems because of traceable IP...

B) I've been doing DMR for two years, have a hotspot on Brandmeister, and am very active. I've never encountered or heard of an ID theft problem. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't appear to be common... yet. QRMers generally pick lower hanging fruit. It's easy to buy a cheap DMR radio and get on a local repeater, but a local repeater operator can simply block an ID. Sure, the QRMer can just put another ID in and keep going, but what is their attention span? The QRM potential is no greater than analog repeaters, and there are other ways to handle QRMers. As for hot spots, a QRMer would have to be motivated to spend the $ on a hot spot, and any QRMing is going to be traceable to an IP address. This leaves a trial. QRMers don't like to leave trails. They might try to use a proxy to hide their location, but there are ways to counteract that. Anyway, those are my thoughts. For now.
 
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jonwienke

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A) This might slow QRMers down but it wouldn't stop them if they were determined, because it's relatively easy to get a packet sniffer and dump the packet contents of all the digital voice modes. The "unique key" would be easy to discover.

You don't understand how digital authentication algorithms work. The authentication key is never disclosed publicly. There are 2 parts to the key, a public part and a private part. The public key is derived from the private key, but in such a way that it is mathematically impossible to calculate the private key from the public key.

When authentication is required, the entity requesting access is sent a random bit string. They use the private key to perform a signature operation on the random bit string, and then send it back to the authenticator. The authenticator uses the public key to reverse the signature operation on the signed random bit string to see if it resolves back to the original random bit string. If it does, the authentication is successful and access is granted. If it doesn't, access is denied.

The private key is held by one individual, and the public key can be distributed to anyone. The private key cannot be discovered by packet sniffing, because it is never sent over a public channel. In many systems, the user generates their own public and private keys, and submit the public key when configuring their user account. That way, there is no central database containing private keys that could be compromised. Each user is responsible for the security of their own private key.
 
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DaveNF2G

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You don't need a key to jam a repeater. You don't even need to be using the same emission mode as the repeater does. All you have to do is put enough RF on the input to render the repeater deaf to all legitimate users. Nothing suggested in this thread will prevent that.
 

jonwienke

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Correct. But authenticating users at the repeater would prevent a malicious user from spamming the entire network the repeater is linked to. They could only jam transmissions in their local area.
 

bill4long

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You don't understand how digital authentication algorithms work. The authentication key is never disclosed publicly. There are 2 parts to the key, a public part and a private part. The public key is derived from the private key, but in such a way that it is mathematically impossible to calculate the private key from the public key.

When authentication is required, the entity requesting access is sent a random bit string. They use the private key to perform a signature operation on the random bit string, and then send it back to the authenticator. The authenticator uses the public key to reverse the signature operation on the signed random bit string to see if it resolves back to the original random bit string. If it does, the authentication is successful and access is granted. If it doesn't, access is denied.

The private key is held by one individual, and the public key can be distributed to anyone. The private key cannot be discovered by packet sniffing, because it is never sent over a public channel. In many systems, the user generates their own public and private keys, and submit the public key when configuring their user account. That way, there is no central database containing private keys that could be compromised. Each user is responsible for the security of their own private key.

I understand public key encryption quite well, actually. I use RSA (along with the block cipher AES) extensively in my data processing operations. What you described is incomplete as a authentication solution, and the element that is missing would obviate the need for a PKE such as RSA in this situation. Here's why:

Public key encryption (PKE) such as RSA indeed allows you to publicly distribute half of a keyset (one part public, one part private) where the public key can be used to encrypt one side of a message, and the private key can be used to decrypt it. Simply connecting to a server, furnishing and having the server encrypt a random string, sending it back and then having the client decrypt it, only determines that the client has the matching private key to the public key. It does nothing else. In order for authenticate to occur, as you say, some sort of unique signature is required. Where does the signature come from? Either both sides must already posses the valid signature, or else the party interested in authentication must acquire the signature (generally called a certificate) from a trusted third party with a known IP address. This happens every time a web browser connects to a web server via HTTPS.

All of the above is unnecessary if both parties know in advance a shared secret.. This is why your WIFI connections don't use third party based authentication. Both WIFI server and client know the shared secret in advance. Browser connections to websites do not have shared secrets in advance. This is why PKE based third-party certificate based authentication is required by the browser to make sure the website is who they say they are.

Now then, in the case of something like DMR security, PKE based authentication would be total overkill and completely unnecessary, and an undo burden on the server. If both sides know the shared secret in advance, no encryption beyond a hash of the shared secret + salt (random string) is necessary for the server to know that the client is who he says he is. This is how mail servers used to work before TLS became prevalent. If we both know the shared secret in advance, when the client connects, the server can send a random string which the client appends to the shared secret, makes a hash, and sends it back to the server. Since the server knows the shared secret it can validate the hash, and now knows that the client possesses the shared secret, and is thusly authenticated. No PKE necessary. So yes, if a shared secret was simply sent to the server without this hashing, it could easily be sniffed, which is why in my "stream of thought" rambling corrected myself by saying it could work by hashing it with a random salt string.

As for using a PKE based system to authenticate, RSA requires a fair amount of horse power, and I believe would put an undo burden on the servers. Aside from that, unless the server knows the shared secret in advance, then a trusted third party would be required. So now this has to be properly managed, not to mention the extra overhead involved at the server. I don't see this happened for something like Brandmeister which has thousands of of connections at a time and all kinds of TCP/IP connection traffic constantly. Plus, it's flat out unnecessarily if the server knows the shared secrets in advance, which seems reasonable.

Of course, none of this applies to local repeaters. They already have encryption for the non-amateur world, and they are not likely to do back flips to accommodate hams. Not the mention that all the radios out there would not be compatible with any such authentication scheme. Fuggedaboudit.

My two cents, anyway.
 
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bill4long

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Correct. But authenticating users at the repeater would prevent a malicious user from spamming the entire network the repeater is linked to. They could only jam transmissions in their local area.

Good luck trying to get Motorola and Hytera to modify their repeater DMR protocols. :D They already have encryption available for non-amateur use, which is what anyone other than hams are using to solve this problem. And if they did, it would render useless all the DMR radios already out there. This is Fantasyland stuff.
 

bill4long

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smh, this is why hotspots became so popular because most hams don't want to deal with stiff collared repeater owners

In my experience, the repeater owners have a very different philosophy about what DMR is all about. They are typically "Motorola guys" who are little interested in the ragchewing people are interested in doing. They seem to be perfectly happy to spend lots of money on a system that is largely unused except for a weekly state-wide "check-in net" where a few people check in. And perhaps a much rarer SkyWarn event. To each his own. I, and others I know, tired of it quickly when we first got into DMR. The way the repeater slot/talkgroup sharing is generally managed, makes "arm chair" DMR ragchewing and/or listening activity rather a drag. There are exceptions, based on people I've talked with, but this seems the norm. Hot spots via Brandmeister etc have changed everything. The whole thing has exploded (in a good way), and become a very pleasurable mode for a lot of hams, myself included. I almost suspect that the Chinese radio manufacturers are behind Brandmeister and DMRplus because the availability of these systems has made DMR radio sales skyrocket. I'm not complaining at all. :D
 
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