Digital voice encryption

[N4KVE]

Repeaters do not have to be RAS only. Here, we have a repeater that has a special TG for the guys who want it. So on 2 TG’s, any radio can talk. But those of us who don’t want to listen to them use the RAS TG. Works quite nicely. This particular repeater is linked to four others within 100 miles, but is not on any network.

 

[jonwienke]

Doesn't change the fact that RAS would be useless if the key was given to every licensed ham worldwide. It wouldn't prevent one ham from impersonating another, and the key would leak outside the ham community in hours.

 

[nd5y]

None of this will prevent jamming.

 

[N4KVE]

Doesn't change the fact that RAS would be useless if the key was given to every licensed ham worldwide. It wouldn't prevent one ham from impersonating another, and the key would leak outside the ham community in hours.

Why would you give it to every licensed ham worldwide? You just give it to friends on the local repeater you want to talk to. Sometimes there’s things that need to be said without everyone hearing. On this one repeater, there only about 5 of us with the RAS code. And you can not read a radio to get the code.

 

[N2AL]

None of this will prevent jamming.

You are absolutely correct. This is why ham radio operators must attempt to find the source of natural and manmade interference. If intentional interference is taking place, operators should notify the F.C.C. Enforcement Bureau.

 

[jonwienke]

Why would you give it to every licensed ham worldwide?

This thread is about keeping jammers and impersonators off DMR-MARCS and similar worldwide digital repeater networks. You can't solve that with RAS on one repeater. If you put RAS on every repeater on the worldwide network, you have to give the RAS key to every licensed ham worldwide, or nobody will be able to use the network. But if you do, the RAS key will be leaked within days, if not hours. So you either make the network unusable, or give the key to so many people that it defeats the purpose of having RAS in the first place. Either way, it's not worth doing.

 

[N4KVE]

I don't care what happens to other repeaters around the world. All the local repeaters except for one are not connected to D-Marc, or Brandmeister. Just to each other in the state. One TG per TS. I only care what happens to the repeaters I use. RAS works just fine for my friends, & me. I do not need to talk to Vlad in Romania from my HT. That what HF is for.

 

[AK9R]

I do not need to talk to Vlad in Romania from my HT. That what HF is for.

But, but, but, what about the poor guy who is stuck in a vinyl village house where the HOA says he can't have any outside antennas. He needs DMR/D-STAR/System Fusion in order to talk around the world. Clearly, you don't get it.

More and more, I'm beginning to like the idea of a group of DMR repeater operators funding their own C Bridge so they can run their own network. To heck with these world-wide networks. Serve the local community first.

But, I'm probably getting off topic for this thread.

 

[N4KVE]

Where is the satisfaction, & sense of accomplishment in that? 99.9% of the trip is through the internet. Might as well use Skype. The real conquest is radio, to radio with no help from the internet. I “could” talk to my high school buddy on 302 Canada Wide from Florida, but choose not to. I just FaceTime him instead. In either case, the internet is doing the job, so I might as well see his face. And I live in Condo land, but still prefer to stay off the “system repeaters”.

 

[AI7PM]

Not gonna happen. But I will say that I've never heard any QRMers, jammers or illegal operators (that I knew of) on DStar or DMR (both are digital) after several years.

I've seen it on both. No ID is needed locally on DSTAR to use the repeater. I've seen spoofed, and use of other people's ID on DMR. Sadly, the mentally ill are there as well.

 

[jonwienke]

I don't care what happens to other repeaters around the world. All the local repeaters except for one are not connected to D-Marc, or Brandmeister. Just to each other in the state. One TG per TS. I only care what happens to the repeaters I use. RAS works just fine for my friends, & me. I do not need to talk to Vlad in Romania from my HT. That what HF is for.

Then there in no need for you to participate in this thread any further, as the solutions for keeping the great unwashed from bothering the clique on your local repeater have nothing to do with the challenges of user management on a worldwide network.

 

[N4KVE]

It's difficult to change the world, but this is how we deal with the problem locally. If enough people did the same thing where they live, it could spread. I don't care if they ban plastic straws in San Francisco, as long as I can still get them here.

 

[INDY72]

This whole thread is the best argument for why amateur radio should never use any commercially used format in the digital offerings. NXDN (iDAS or NexEDGE), DMR, or P25. The security needed to keep things safe on the anti jamming, anti spamming, its my special repeater closed to anyone that is not with me side, is illegal to use in the USA on amateur radio. Scrambling of ANY kind is forbidden. RAS has the tecnical problems aforementioned and is not for amateur systems anyway. Want to be a private me and my boys only club? Get an business license and set up an repeater for your use only, and legally encrypt it til the cows come home! Just make sure your special buds all keep the keyloader secret and so on. On DMR systems, being that it is really an open standard and that connectivity is by IP, you can only control local access really by the Color Codes, Time Slots in relation to TG you set as allowed on your repeater network. Just like on analog, you really only have the use of tones, and permissions to control access.

 

[N4KVE]

RAS is not encryption. Perfectly legal for ham radio use. Code programmed from the laptop. No keyloader necessary.

 

[RayAir]

I think in order for this to work, first it would have to be legal.
Second, on a national level , key distribution would be too difficult.
You'd likely have to send your radio to a group that does the keying (who ever that may be) and they'd mail it back.
Sending everyone a copy of the traffic key nullifies the purpose of privacy.

The other point
How to control system access.
For DMR I can think of two schemes:
Mototrbo RAS- prevents unauthorized access or receive (if using DMR radios)

Hytera OTA Encrypt - controls repeater access and scrambles the TG and radio ID numbers.
Key is entered in CPS by entering a random 128bit hexadecimal key.

This is a cool concept, but to try to coordinate this nationally would be very difficult.
Now, on a local level it would be much easier.

And if your RAS or traffic key got out you'd be compromised and every radio would need to be physically touched again.

This would cost some money, but my ideal local set up would be a Hytera repeater system running 1 time slot open (interop) and the other would be set with an OTA signaling encryption key and would use the free built in 40 bit full encrypt function (ARC4). I know it's not very strong, but the OTA signaling encryption would make it a couple shades stronger. Ideally the radios would be upgraded with advanced encryption licenses and would use DMRA AES 128 or 256 for voice privacy.

This is intriguing but the more I think about, it sounds like a pipedream.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Amateur radio is not intended or designed to be sectioned off to different groups of hams. Every ham has full legal access to every frequency within the scope of their license privileges.

The FCC has permitted "closed" repeaters to exist because of the expense of operating a repeater and the legitimate desire of clubs (and some individuals) to provide the machine for the use of those who support that expense.

Once you network your "closed" repeater, it is open.

 

[bill4long]

Where is the satisfaction, & sense of accomplishment in that? 99.9% of the trip is through the internet. Might as well use Skype.

If you don't like it, don't use it. A lot of us do like it, and do use it. And are having a lot of fun doing so. Different strokes.

 

[bill4long]

Once you network your "closed" repeater, it is open.

Not necessarily. You can still determine who is allowed to key up the local RX of your repeater.

 

[N4KVE]

Amateur radio is not intended or designed to be sectioned off to different groups of hams. Every ham has full legal access to every frequency within the scope of their license privileges.

Now there’s a novel idea. They do it on HF. Why not VHF, & UHF?

 

[N4KVE]

If you don't like it, don't use it. A lot of us do like it, and do use it. And are having a lot of fun doing so. Different strokes.

Do you at least connect through a repeater, so some of your contact is over the air, or do you talk 2 feet to a hot spot, & the internet does the rest?