Discussion: FCC Advisory on Two-Way VHF/UHF Radios

[mastr]

...If you have PROOF that said vendor is "handing over huge wads o cash" then put up or shut up...

Just out of curiosity- do you actually think that IF a vendor was "handing over....cash", they would be naive enough to do so in a way that would offer even a remote possibility of creating PROOF of that action?

 

[MTS2000des]

Just out of curiosity- do you actually think that IF a vendor was "handing over....cash", they would be naive enough to do so in a way that would offer even a remote possibility of creating PROOF of that action?

Political contributions are made everyday and most of it on the public record. To suggest that manufacturers of land mobile radio are going to spend money to hire lobbyists to fight CCRs is laughable. These turdpile radios aren't even a blip on their radar screens. Reputable companies like Icom, JVC Kenwood, Harris and Motorola Solutions sell one radio several grand to public safety and businesses. The low end market for entry level subscribers that these CCRs live in isn't worth their time.

It's amusing to me that so many in the radio hobby community have such a twisted view of reality. As if there is some big conspiracy. As if those who are in the industry and governments are all sitting around a secret meeting table in some underground bunker strategizing against these low rent importers of turd radios being such a threat to their business of selling multi-million dollar radios to governments, military and big contract customers.

When (insert CCR factory here) starts pumping out P-25 subscribers capable of AES-256 and trunking for sub $500, then they might start writing checks to lobbyists to stop it.

 

[KK4JUG]

Some people are attributing success to payola when, in fact, it's simply R&D, successful products, and marketing.

 

[kbroderick]

The low end market for entry level subscribers that these CCRs live in isn't worth their time.

I doubt that's true. I've worked for several ski-industry organizations (both ski areas and race clubs) that were perennially short on working radios, in large part due to the cost of the cheapest Motorola (or Kenwood or other big-name) radios. While I'm not sure exactly what the numbers were for most of them, I know that one of them was paying over $100 per Kenwood HT for a five-month lease. For that same cost, they could have purchased two UV-5rs with chargers and mics (IIRC the Kenwoods lacked mics), and when one (or three or five) go missing between the race hill, the van, and the clubhouse, it's not a big deal. With those type of economics, I'd expect that enough low-budget organizations have made the switch to CCRs for the distributors of the big-name radios to notice and push their concerns up the pipe.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of places that were using questionable radios has gone through the roof in recent years, given the widespread availability of CCRs on eBay and Amazon, and that has affected the sales figures for the companies selling properly type-certified business radios (as well as overpriced programming services and whatnot).

 

[JasonTracy]

Everyone is talking about spectral purity and big radio conspiracies, but this seems very simple:

The example given is in the FCC statement:
Many of these radios violate one or more FCC technical requirements. For example, some can be
modified to transmit on public safety and other land mobile channels for which they are not authorized,
while others are capable of prohibited wideband operations.

I've shared the example of the BTECH UV-5X3 which:

-Comes shipped with frequencies used by businesses and public safety
-Is capable of wideband

Let's not make this more complicated than it really is.
Can we all at least agree that we shouldn't be shipping radios marketed as Amateur Radio HT's with non-amateur channels from the factory?

 

[KevinC]

Everyone is talking about spectral purity and big radio conspiracies, but this seems very simple:

The example given is in the FCC statement:
Many of these radios violate one or more FCC technical requirements. For example, some can be
modified to transmit on public safety and other land mobile channels for which they are not authorized,
while others are capable of prohibited wideband operations.

I've shared the example of the BTECH UV-5X3 which:

-Comes shipped with frequencies used by businesses and public safety
-Is capable of wideband

Let's not make this more complicated than it really is.
Can we all at least agree that we shouldn't be shipping radios marketed as Amateur Radio HT's with non-amateur channels from the factory?

I wouldn't say everyone...:wink:

Again, people seem to be missing the point of this advisory. It isn't about spectral purity, them being a piece of crap (and I'm not saying they are or aren't), it's about this...

"Many of these radios violate one or more FCC technical requirements. For example, some can be modified to transmit on public safety and other land mobile channels for which they are not authorized, while others are capable of prohibited wideband operations. Such radios are illegal, and many have the potential to negatively affect public safety, aviation, and other operations by Federal, state, and local agencies, as well as private users."

 

[kayn1n32008]

Everyone is talking about spectral purity and big radio conspiracies, but this seems very simple:



The example given is in the FCC statement:

Many of these radios violate one or more FCC technical requirements. For example, some can be

modified to transmit on public safety and other land mobile channels for which they are not authorized,

while others are capable of prohibited wideband operations.



I've shared the example of the BTECH UV-5X3 which:



-Comes shipped with frequencies used by businesses and public safety

-Is capable of wideband

Would spectral purity not also be a ‘technical requirement?

Would that also not also fall under the ‘or more technical requirements’?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JasonTracy]

KevinC, first you're correct, I didn't actually mean "everyone".

Would spectral purity not also be a ‘technical requirement?

Would that also not also fall under the ‘or more technical requirements’?

It would, and I do think this is part of the problem. However, the FCC didn't mention this part, so that seems to be a clear indicator it isn't their *primary* motivation. In fact, outside of the amateur radio community, the main complaint I hear about CCRs is that they're used by kids that think they're walkie-talkies, and are stepping on a licensed frequency. That aligns with the FCC's example.

I don't think there is any debate that we shouldn't have things being sold as amateur radios but shipping with non-amateur frequencies built-in.

In fact, unless they're Part 95 radios, I don't think they should ship with any frequencies set to transmit.

This seems to be the low-hanging fruit of the discussion, and something we can all agree on. Right?

 

[Stupidfatkid]

CCRs are tiny little Remora to the Moto whale. The CCRs eke out a life by cleaning the parasites off the Moto whale, and eating little scraps of food from between its teeth.

 

[alcahuete]

The low end market for entry level subscribers that these CCRs live in isn't worth their time.

Except it's not just the low-end market using these radios. That's where your argument loses its validity. As I said many pages ago, I have seen entire school districts, businesses large and small, etc., all moving to CCRs. If you don't think that hurts the bottom line for Mother M and the other manufacturers, YOU are the one with the twisted view of reality.

No, they aren't losing huge, lucrative military and law enforcement contracts, but it all adds up. Just in the small examples I found, Motorola easily lost $5 million, and will continue to lose that money. Add that up across the entire country and you are looking at huge losses for Motorola and friends.

And the biggest problem for the radio manufacturers is that the switch is going to keep happening. People are realizing they can buy 10-15 or more of these radios for the price of a Motorola, and when one breaks they just throw it away and buy a new one. That was the mentality of the school district where I used to live. It is actually in the school board meeting minutes. And just like that, a 1000 radio contract for Motorola gone.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I doubt that's true. I've worked for several ski-industry organizations (both ski areas and race clubs) that were perennially short on working radios, in large part due to the cost of the cheapest Motorola (or Kenwood or other big-name) radios. While I'm not sure exactly what the numbers were for most of them, I know that one of them was paying over $100 per Kenwood HT for a five-month lease. For that same cost, they could have purchased two UV-5rs with chargers and mics (IIRC the Kenwoods lacked mics), and when one (or three or five) go missing between the race hill, the van, and the clubhouse, it's not a big deal. With those type of economics, I'd expect that enough low-budget organizations have made the switch to CCRs for the distributors of the big-name radios to notice and push their concerns up the pipe.

I'd be willing to bet that the number of places that were using questionable radios has gone through the roof in recent years, given the widespread availability of CCRs on eBay and Amazon, and that has affected the sales figures for the companies selling properly type-certified business radios (as well as overpriced programming services and whatnot).

To be clear, the UV5R radio is not part 90 radio. It is an amateur radio approved under part 15 rules.

https://fccid.io/2AJGM-UV5R

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Some people are attributing success to payola when, in fact, it's simply R&D, successful products, and marketing.

Well you forgot to mention Lobbyists. When you factor them in the ethics can become murky.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Everyone is talking about spectral purity and big radio conspiracies, but this seems very simple:

The example given is in the FCC statement:
Many of these radios violate one or more FCC technical requirements. For example, some can be
modified to transmit on public safety and other land mobile channels for which they are not authorized,
while others are capable of prohibited wideband operations.

I've shared the example of the BTECH UV-5X3 which:

-Comes shipped with frequencies used by businesses and public safety
-Is capable of wideband

Let's not make this more complicated than it really is.
Can we all at least agree that we shouldn't be shipping radios marketed as Amateur Radio HT's with non-amateur channels from the factory?

No argument here. It should be added that the sellers should be making it very clear that with only few exceptions (FRS/MURS/CB/WiFi) an FCC license is required for most radios being sold including Ham, LMR, GMRS.

 

[kbroderick]

To be clear, the UV5R radio is not part 90 radio. It is an amateur radio approved under part 15 rules.

https://fccid.io/2AJGM-UV5R

Right, and I believe that's central to the advisory—radios that are either approved under part 15, or do not properly meet specifications for an alleged approval (e.g. part 90 "approved" radios that don't function as described in the approval documents)—but that are being marketed and sold for what amounts to part 90 usage, or other usage outside of approved amateur bands (and definitely not marketed as needing an FCC license for usage).

 

[nd5y]

To be clear, the UV5R radio is not part 90 radio. It is an amateur radio approved under part 15 rules.

https://fccid.io/2AJGM-UV5R

There are several manufacturers that have FCC Part 90 certified UV-5R clones.
Look at the external and internal photos. They are all basically the same radio.
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-5R
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-5RA
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-F9V2
https://fccid.io/ZVMUV-E5
https://fccid.io/QGDTD-Q8
https://fccid.io/PODTH-UVF9
There are probably even more that I haven't found yet.

 

[mastr]

...And the biggest problem for the radio manufacturers is that the switch is going to keep happening. People are realizing they can buy 10-15 or more of these radios for the price of a Motorola, and when one breaks they just throw it away....just like that, a 1000 radio contract for Motorola gone.

Good point. My guess is that makers of "good" FCC approved radios will have to drop a zero off of the price unless they intend to get by on sales to PD, FD, EMS users with deep pockets. Stopping the use of cheap Bao-Wou-Pux radios will be difficult if not impossible.

 

[alcahuete]

Good point. My guess is that makers of "good" FCC approved radios will have to drop a zero off of the price unless they intend to get by on sales to PD, FD, EMS users with deep pockets. Stopping the use of cheap Bao-Wou-Pux radios will be difficult if not impossible.

Exactly right, and even to be completely legal, all they will have to do is get Part 90 certification, which is not at all difficult to obtain. There are plenty of CCRs that are already certified, and I'm sure plenty more that will be following the FCC announcement. People are finally starting to wake up. A business can buy a single $1500 Motorola radio, or 20 $75 radios for the same price. You don't need expensive /\/\ accessories, you don't need service contracts (you just throw the radios away when they break and buy new), etc. It's a no-brainer.

If the FCC is correct, and it's upward of 1 million radios per year, that's HUGE losses for Motorola and friends. Really, even if they are only replacing $30 GMRS radios, that's still a $30 million loss. I don't care what anyone says, that's a large chunk of change. It's awfully hard to explain a $30 million year-after-year loss to the shareholders. And I know from personal experience that it isn't just the GMRS radios that are being replaced.

It should be added that the sellers should be making it very clear that with only few exceptions (FRS/MURS/CB/WiFi) an FCC license is required for most radios being sold including Ham, LMR, GMRS.

They used to do just that, but nobody cared. Remember the paperwork that used to be included with all the ham radios, and blue/green/red dot radios? I still have a RCI-1000 box with the original application. They used to have the license application included in the boxes on the commercial rigs, but nobody cared. Most businesses just pulled them out of the box and started talking anyway. That's largely why they did away with the whole process.

I don't disagree that it should be included with every single radio that is sold. Unfortunately, I don't know that it's going to make a difference when it comes to unlicensed use.

Me personally? I think it would be a good compromise if the radios just came programmed with FRS or MURS (depending on the band). Will people run 5 watts instead of 2? Sure, but who cares? There are already hams and plenty of other people running WAY too much power as it is. The extra 3 watts is not going to make a difference, and at least these people would be away from public service frequencies.

 

[Darmtn]

Note- I live in the Sierra foothills, and monitor the fires from the recent lightning strikes and, sure enough heard a conversation about how good the Baofeng radio was doing getting out of the canyon. Anyone that believes the "big" boys aren't taking a big loss from these cheapies is delusional.
They are still being sold all across EBAY - many as scanners! 4x4 clubs -backpackers- lodges love them since they can set up communications for 1/10 the cost. Has anyone even SEEN a FRS radio being sold in the bubble packs? They were replaced by the BIG guys selling frs/gmrs packs - karma?

 

[Darmtn]

Me personally? I think it would be a good compromise if the radios just came programmed with FRS or MURS (depending on the band). Will people run 5 watts instead of 2? Sure, but who cares? There are already hams and plenty of other people running WAY too much power as it is. The extra 3 watts is not going to make a difference, and at least these people would be away from public service frequencies".

This sounds like best idea - given they are not going away - and rural areas are impossible to enforce regs

 

[KK4JUG]

Me personally? I think it would be a good compromise if the radios just came programmed with FRS or MURS (depending on the band). Will people run 5 watts instead of 2? Sure, but who cares? There are already hams and plenty of other people running WAY too much power as it is. The extra 3 watts is not going to make a difference, and at least these people would be away from public service frequencies".

This sounds like best idea - given they are not going away - and rural areas are impossible to enforce regs

They're not certified for FRS. If that's the case, the FCC should only allow them to be sold in rural area.