Downtown Fort Worth - What would you scan for?

[gatsat]

When you start the LCN Finder, it resets all of the LCNs on your target system to zero. I presume that where you are seeing LCN 1, 2, 3, and 4 is on your programming file. If you "read" the scanner back into Sentinel, you should get a prompt that the list being read is different than in Sentinel, and choose whether to replace the item in the list in Sentinel, save it with a new name, or cancel (ignore) the change. You want to let it replace what is in the software so that you can view what it found.

When you run the System Analyzer, are you seeing any indication of a signal, like you see here? (After you updated the Color Code to 9?) And do you see anything after System Status? The Con + you see on this example is shorthand for Connectivity Plus, which is one version of a DMR system.
View attachment 137138

And you are seeing those two TGIDs on one of the "OFT" system's sites? Are they all popping uo in the same OFT channel? Or are you seeing more than one frequency come up?

You might connect the scanner to your laptop, putting the scanner in serial mode. Then, use ProScan to capture a log of what it is seeing.

No, this is all I get on the System Status when I run the 'Bass Enterprises' system from the DB.



Here is some of the info from the two different TGIDs I have captured from the OFT system. I named the TGIDs 'Bass 13' and 'Bass 16'. Is there a specific log format that would help you to help me? Thanks!

13 855.587500/1 CC 9 5 8002 NFM 66 00:00:23 02/24/23 18:50:11 02/24/23 18:50:35 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Bass 13 DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

16 856.537500/1 CC 9 5 2003 NFM 69 00:00:07 02/24/23 18:31:23 02/24/23 18:31:31 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Bass/Sundance Square Bass 16 DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

 

[hiegtx]

No, this is all I get on the System Status when I run the 'Bass Enterprises' system from the DB.

View attachment 137148

Here is some of the info from the two different TGIDs I have captured from the OFT system. I named the TGIDs 'Bass 13' and 'Bass 16'. Is there a specific log format that would help you to help me? Thanks!

13 855.587500/1 CC 9 5 8002 NFM 66 00:00:23 02/24/23 18:50:11 02/24/23 18:50:35 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Bass 13 DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

16 856.537500/1 CC 9 5 2003 NFM 69 00:00:07 02/24/23 18:31:23 02/24/23 18:31:31 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Bass/Sundance Square Bass 16 DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

Looks like, even though it is licensed for trunking, they are simply using frequencies in the OFT mode, instead of a trunled system with seevral frequencies.

You have both those TGIDs noted as Security, but on different frequencies. Wild guess: They might be using a given frequency for one specific building or venue. But, at least you can hear something using the OFT programming.

Here's a screenshot for a different DMR trunked system on my side of the Metroplex:

 

[gatsat]

Looks like, even though it is licensed for trunking, they are simply using frequencies in the OFT mode, instead of a trunled system with seevral frequencies.

You have both those TGIDs noted as Security, but on different frequencies. Wild guess: They might be using a given frequency for one specific building or venue. But, at least you can hear something using the OFT programming.

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out what exactly the differences are between TGID 13 and 16. I also wish I knew how they 'interop' with the CoFW PD. I will keep listening and try to put it together.

How would you 'clean up' the OFT system at this point? Or would you leave it alone?
Is there anything else I can do to dig deeper into this system?

Thanks for your help! This was a really interesting exercise for me, I learned a few things along the way.

 

[hiegtx]

Yeah, I am still trying to figure out what exactly the differences are between TGID 13 and 16. I also wish I knew how they 'interop' with the CoFW PD. I will keep listening and try to put it together.

How would you 'clean up' the OFT system at this point? Or would you leave it alone?
Is there anything else I can do to dig deeper into this system?

Thanks for your help! This was a really interesting exercise for me, I learned a few things along the way.

I would not worry too much about 'cleaning up' the OFT system. You can enter the talkgroups you've found (if you haven't already) so that you can set alert LED colors.

Did you ever hear any activity on that single conventional channel, 857.5375? Since it may be used simply as a single channel, I
d add it as another 'site' in the OFT system. That way, if they key up using it, you'd see the talkgroup and color code used.

As that is in Fort Worth, and outside of range for me, I can't be of much help in trying to find a 'method to their madness'. As for how they might interact with FWPD, your guess is as good as mine. While I doubt this is the case, I suppose that the city could have provided them a radio to help coordinate any needed responses. But it's also possible that Bass might use some off-duty FWPD officers, who may have their own designated personal radio.

If you used one of the SDR dongles, and DSD plus (or one of the other available software packages), you might sniff something out. But since you are seeing nothing on the System Status analyzer, they may not be operating the system as a true trunked system. One indicator of that is that the Status page has DMR listed, not one of the normal trunked system types like Connect or Capacity.

You might try listening more carefully to the two TGIDs that you've found so far. From your comments, they appear to be for Security. Maybe you'll catch something said that fills in a few blanks. Like, Security TGID 13 is for a specific building, whereas TGID is used at a different location like Sundance Square within the various Bass related buildings.
You might try Googling 'Events in Fort Worth.

I see there is something at Bass Hall tomorrow , so maybe you'll hear something more specific, such as ticketing & dealing with patrons concerns over their seating arrangements, or perhaps food service (concessions) for the event.

 

[gatsat]

I would not worry too much about 'cleaning up' the OFT system. You can enter the talkgroups you've found (if you haven't already) so that you can set alert LED colors.

Did you ever hear any activity on that single conventional channel, 857.5375? Since it may be used simply as a single channel, I
d add it as another 'site' in the OFT system. That way, if they key up using it, you'd see the talkgroup and color code used.

As that is in Fort Worth, and outside of range for me, I can't be of much help in trying to find a 'method to their madness'. As for how they might interact with FWPD, your guess is as good as mine. While I doubt this is the case, I suppose that the city could have provided them a radio to help coordinate any needed responses. But it's also possible that Bass might use some off-duty FWPD officers, who may have their own designated personal radio.

If you used one of the SDR dongles, and DSD plus (or one of the other available software packages), you might sniff something out. But since you are seeing nothing on the System Status analyzer, they may not be operating the system as a true trunked system. One indicator of that is that the Status page has DMR listed, not one of the normal trunked system types like Connect or Capacity.

You might try listening more carefully to the two TGIDs that you've found so far. From your comments, they appear to be for Security. Maybe you'll catch something said that fills in a few blanks. Like, Security TGID 13 is for a specific building, whereas TGID is used at a different location like Sundance Square within the various Bass related buildings.
You might try Googling 'Events in Fort Worth.

I see there is something at Bass Hall tomorrow , so maybe you'll hear something more specific, such as ticketing & dealing with patrons concerns over their seating arrangements, or perhaps food service (concessions) for the event.

I never heard anything on the conventional 857.5375 ... but I will add it to the OFT. The weekends are fairly busy down here, not like the 'old days' but it has to be the busiest time for the Sundance Security with all the foot traffic. I started recording everything from my SDS200 to my laptop this morning, it's only monitoring the Bass OFT right now, I will let it run all weekend and see if I can make heads from tails. Do you think I should submit what I have so far to the RR DB? I have never made a submission, so I am not familiar with the process.

I do have some various SDR dongles but have not used one yet. What software is the best for a beginner like me?

Thx!

 

[hiegtx]

I never heard anything on the conventional 857.5375 ... but I will add it to the OFT. The weekends are fairly busy down here, not like the 'old days' but it has to be the busiest time for the Sundance Security with all the foot traffic. I started recording everything from my SDS200 to my laptop this morning, it's only monitoring the Bass OFT right now, I will let it run all weekend and see if I can make heads from tails. Do you think I should submit what I have so far to the RR DB? I have never made a submission, so I am not familiar with the process.

I do have some various SDR dongles but have not used one yet. What software is the best for a beginner like me?

Thx!

If you are seeing a specific TGID always shows up on one specific frequency, then I would submit that as a 'conventional channel for Tarrant County. I would add (in your comments) that this frequency was listed as part of the trunked system, but there is no activity on it. (I would include the FCC license, WNMV324). When submitting, include the TGID, Color Code, and the Slot number you see it on.

See the attached file for step by step suggestions for reviewing your recordings.

 

[gatsat]

If you are seeing a specific TGID always shows up on one specific frequency, then I would submit that as a 'conventional channel for Tarrant County. I would add (in your comments) that this frequency was listed as part of the trunked system, but there is no activity on it. (I would include the FCC license, WNMV324). When submitting, include the TGID, Color Code, and the Slot number you see it on.

UPDATE: I have continued to let my scanner run on the 'Bass OFT' and 'Bass Conventional' systems that I setup (with your guidance)... there was a lot of activity over the weekend with the Cowtown Marathon, shows at Bass Hall, and the usual nightlife. During the weekend it was just TGIDs 13 and 16. TGID 13 seems to be mainly parking garage and building security, while TGID 16 is more of the bicycle/segway 'street patrol'. On Monday morning I noticed a new TGID 11 ... after listening to the their recordings I suspect they are building maintenance for Bass owned properties. THEN today I notice a new TGID 12 (still trying to figure out what they are, not much to work with yet) AND I got a hit on the Conventional channel. The Conventional hit populated as TGID 10 with Color Code 13 (not CC 9 like the others). How do I add a TGID for the Conventional channel? ... the 'Add TGID' button is greyed out when I try to add one.


Talk Group ID Frequency Tone RSSI UID Mod. Hits Duration Start Date / Time End Date / Time System / Site Department Channel System Type Digital Status Service Type Number Tag Tune

10 857.537500 CC 13 2 1005 NFM 5 00:00:35 02/28/23 10:55:37 02/28/23 15:30:21 Bass Conventional Bass Conventional Conventional Freq Conventional DMR Security - -

11 855.587500/2 CC 9 5 8001 NFM 57 00:08:38 02/28/23 08:13:53 02/28/23 15:55:39 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Maintenance DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

12 856.537500/2 CC 9 5 2023 NFM 7 00:00:53 02/28/23 05:41:17 02/28/23 05:58:24 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Unknown TGID:12 DMR One Frequency DMR - -

13 855.587500/1 CC 9 5 2039 NFM 1425 00:49:01 02/28/23 01:39:20 02/28/23 15:59:03 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Bldg/Garage Security DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

16 856.537500/1 CC 9 5 2069 NFM 958 00:20:45 02/28/23 00:51:48 02/28/23 15:58:00 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Bass/Sundance Square Street Security DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

 

[hiegtx]

UPDATE: I have continued to let my scanner run on the 'Bass OFT' and 'Bass Conventional' systems that I setup (with your guidance)... there was a lot of activity over the weekend with the Cowtown Marathon, shows at Bass Hall, and the usual nightlife. During the weekend it was just TGIDs 13 and 16. TGID 13 seems to be mainly parking garage and building security, while TGID 16 is more of the bicycle/segway 'street patrol'. On Monday morning I noticed a new TGID 11 ... after listening to the their recordings I suspect they are building maintenance for Bass owned properties. THEN today I notice a new TGID 12 (still trying to figure out what they are, not much to work with yet) AND I got a hit on the Conventional channel. The Conventional hit populated as TGID 10 with Color Code 13 (not CC 9 like the others). How do I add a TGID for the Conventional channel? ... the 'Add TGID' button is greyed out when I try to add one.


Talk Group ID Frequency Tone RSSI UID Mod. Hits Duration Start Date / Time End Date / Time System / Site Department Channel System Type Digital Status Service Type Number Tag Tune

10 857.537500 CC 13 2 1005 NFM 5 00:00:35 02/28/23 10:55:37 02/28/23 15:30:21 Bass Conventional Bass Conventional Conventional Freq Conventional DMR Security - -

11 855.587500/2 CC 9 5 8001 NFM 57 00:08:38 02/28/23 08:13:53 02/28/23 15:55:39 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Maintenance DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

12 856.537500/2 CC 9 5 2023 NFM 7 00:00:53 02/28/23 05:41:17 02/28/23 05:58:24 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Unknown TGID:12 DMR One Frequency DMR - -

13 855.587500/1 CC 9 5 2039 NFM 1425 00:49:01 02/28/23 01:39:20 02/28/23 15:59:03 Bass OFT / 855.587500 Bass/Sundance Square Bldg/Garage Security DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

16 856.537500/1 CC 9 5 2069 NFM 958 00:20:45 02/28/23 00:51:48 02/28/23 15:58:00 Bass OFT / 856.537500 Bass/Sundance Square Street Security DMR One Frequency DMR Security - -

View attachment 137390

View attachment 137389

From your description,, it appears that they be using the frequency 857.5375 as another DMR system. When entered conventionally, you cannot specify a talkgroup, even though you might see one logged in ProScan, But you can program it, and specify one or more talkgroups, it you enter it into another OFT system. (For that matter, you could simply enter it as another 'site' in your current OFT system, specifying Color Code 13 instead of the CC9 used on the other frequencies.)

Look at this system in the database, for the Adolphus Hotel in downtown Dallas:

Adolphus Hotel Trunking System, Dallas, Texas

Adolphus Hotel Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

They have just a single frequency, but are using 5 different talkgroups for various functions.

 

[gatsat]

From your description,, it appears that they be using the frequency 857.5375 as another DMR system. When entered conventionally, you cannot specify a talkgroup, even though you might see one logged in ProScan, But you can program it, and specify one or more talkgroups, it you enter it into another OFT system. (For that matter, you could simply enter it as another 'site' in your current OFT system, specifying Color Code 13 instead of the CC9 used on the other frequencies.)

Look at this system in the database, for the Adolphus Hotel in downtown Dallas:

Adolphus Hotel Trunking System, Dallas, Texas

Adolphus Hotel Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

They have just a single frequency, but are using 5 different talkgroups for various functions.

Ok, so I will add 857.5375 to the OFT group with CC 13 instead of 9.

I can't wrap my head around them only having one frequency, it seems like they have five frequencies... my head hurts.

 

[hiegtx]

Ok, so I will add 857.5375 to the OFT group with CC 13 instead of 9.

I can't wrap my head around them only having one frequency, it seems like they have five frequencies... my head hurts.

I know. It does not make sense to me either. What neither of us know for sure is if they, at least initially, used those four frequencies listed in the database as an actual trunked system, but later converted to using them as a collection of OFT channels.

 

[gatsat]

I know. It does not make sense to me either. What neither of us know for sure is if they, at least initially, used those four frequencies listed in the database as an actual trunked system, but later converted to using them as a collection of OFT channels.

The pandemic shutdown did a number on Sundance (just like most public venue centers) and it's just now getting back to something resembling pre-pandemic times. There are a lot less people working for Sundance, in general, at the moment. The valets used to be all over the place, they are centralized now. The bars and restaurant traffic is still way down, which means less people on the streets in general... and I think they (Sundance) changed management companies. Like you said though, without knowing how they used to use it there is no way to know what if anything has changed.

I just added the 'main' freq with CC13 to the OFT group, turned off the Conventional channel, and will continue logging/recording to see if I can figure out anything new. I am going to continue holding off on submitting this until I get a little better idea of their system structure.


These are some of the log screens from right before I made the changes outlined above.




Thanks again for your help.

 

[hiegtx]

One thing to look for is if a specific TGID comes up on more than one of the original four frequencies listed for the (possibly) inactive trunked system.

Looking at your screenshot (the bottom one), I see TGID 13 a couple times on 855.5875. If that is the only frequency you see it on, then the OFT system will be the way to follow it. If, at some point, you start seeing it pop-up on one of the other frequencies (especially if that shows to be the UID), then they are still using the 'trunked' system, even though System Status & LCN Finder are not picking it up.

 

[Endurordr]

Tons of rail traffic in the downtown area. I’ve heard rail security provide info about police chasing subjects on tracks, etc. that you cannot get with FWPD being encrypted. It’s a mix of TRE, BNSF, UP, Amtrak, FWWRR, and Texrail. You are in the perfect location to get the most rail comms.

Lots of air traffic too - on a good day JRB and Meacham have plenty to listen to. Also pick up a lot of medical helicopters on analog. I enjoy hearing where they are coming from / going to as they fly over.

Thanks for working on the downtown security frequencies. I’ve always wanted to listen on my SDS100 but haven’t committed the time to learn it all. You are right - downtown isn’t what it used to be. CoVID really took a toll, and now the parking garage prices are out of this world.