Duke Energy

[bb49490]

I really miss listening to them. Growing up in country, it was nice to have the ol scanner going when it was stormy outside. It was amazing on what they could do under those weather conditions.

 

[mjdewey]

Duke has used Nextel for over a year. They do not even have the old 800 mhz Motorola radios in their truck. The FCC database shows all 800 mhz licenses in Indiana as cancelled or expired.

Mike Dewey
KC9AOM

 

[WA9JGB]

Some of the Johnson County units still have and use there radios. Im not sure if you saw my previous post?

 

[SCPD]

Duke has used Nextel for over a year. They do not even have the old 800 mhz Motorola radios in their truck. The FCC database shows all 800 mhz licenses in Indiana as cancelled or expired.

Mike Dewey
KC9AOM

\

That is incorrect I dont know what FCC data you are looking at but NEXTEl has current new lic for Duke please see exsample KNBX 830 for hamilton county and Lic under Duke Energy Carolinas, LLC All countys will or have been upgrading there systems for over a year now and a lot of the Duke trucks still have 800 in there trucks and some of the new Motorola Harmonys use the 800MHz band. They had to upgrade all there lic for Rebanding the only for sure canceld lic is the state lic KA86740 That is because Duke is going by county needs only. Please see post on page 1 use those call on the FCC data base it shows current and active for Duke NOT CANCELLED or search by Duke Energy Carolinas, LLC I know it is weird we are in Indiana but the paper work goes through them or Nextell Holdings 4

 

[SCPD]

Some corrections on earler post mostly call letters sorry for the mix up.

KNOX Trunked
WPUC362

Vigo Con
KNCD486

Clay con
WPUC594


When you do a search on the FCC web site put in the call letters or search by name select name search and list Duke Energy Carolinas, LLC or Nextel License Holdings 4, Inc. and then click on the call when it comes up and click on location and it will show you what county it is in. Dont just look at the first page and the controll point it will always say most of the time list HENDRICKS County that is where the Indiana paper work goes through for indy click location tab for county and Frequency tab for a Frequency list
FCC Link Search link
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchLicense.jsp

 

[EngineerZ]

\

That is incorrect I dont know what FCC data you are looking at but NEXTEl has current new lic for Duke please see exsample KNBX 830 for hamilton county and Lic under Duke Energy Carolinas, LLC All countys will or have been upgrading there systems for over a year now and a lot of the Duke trucks still have 800 in there trucks and some of the new Motorola Harmonys use the 800MHz band.

Just as a point of clarification... Duke has not abandoned their private 800 MHz system, they have replaced their old conevtional system with Motorola's iDEN-like Harmony product, which uses the same handsets as Nextel. So while the Duke linemen's new handsets look like Nextels, the system is Duke private Harmony system. If you search ULS, you'll see Duke still has well over a hundred 800 MHz licenses in Indiana.

Regarding the licenses that have been assigned from Duke/PSI to Nextel... If you look at application history for these licenses (e.g. KNBX830), you'll find that these were general category licenses assigned to Nextel in exchange for new frequencies from Nextel, all for 800 MHz rebanding. Before Nextel could start relocating public safety into the lower portion of the 800 band, they had to move out the incumbents like Duke; that's why those licenses now have Nextel's name on them.

--z

 

[EngineerZ]

My Fire Dept. worked a house fire yesterday and I made it a point to ask the Duke Serviceman how the new radio system worked. Basically he said it sucked. Dead spots, cant talk to someone 500 ft. away, ect. What a shame.

Yes, it looks like Motorola really sold PSI a bill of goods with that Harmony system. I find it interesting that when M/A-COM sells someone a new 800 MHz system with serious issues, folks call it snake oil, call for investigations, and say this wouldn't have happened if the organization had just bought Motorola. But when Motorola sells a lemon or doesn't provide near the coverage the users expected, folks say things like "what a shame" or they talk about how more money needs to be squeezed out of taxpayers to get the problem fixed (as in the Hancock County thread).

--z

 

[SCPD]

Just as a point of clarification... Duke has not abandoned their private 800 MHz system, they have replaced their old conevtional system with Motorola's iDEN-like Harmony product, which uses the same handsets as Nextel. So while the Duke linemen's new handsets look like Nextels, the system is Duke private Harmony system. If you search ULS, you'll see Duke still has well over a hundred 800 MHz licenses in Indiana.

Regarding the licenses that have been assigned from Duke/PSI to Nextel... If you look at application history for these licenses (e.g. KNBX830), you'll find that these were general category licenses assigned to Nextel in exchange for new frequencies from Nextel, all for 800 MHz rebanding. Before Nextel could start relocating public safety into the lower portion of the 800 band, they had to move out the incumbents like Duke; that's why those licenses now have Nextel's name on them.

--z

Nextel has had Hamilton County for Duke for years and has had the same 800 freqs since 2002 they just did not take over that 800 licenes. Even when it was PSI and Cinergy now PSI had stuff in the UHF and still do operate it from time to time as well at least it ids every hour or so.
Here is a link at least back to 2004 on Hamilton County for 800 owened by Nextel. Nextel operates under sevral names since there has been a lot of mergers.

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/own...Ind=Y&hiddenForm=hiddenForm&jsValidated=false


And a link to the changes most of it was for the inputs to the sites and attorney changes it names the controll point still list Duke Energy in Hendricks County that is where the local paper work gos through.


http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applTransLog.jsp?applID=4172640


Either way they are missed on the 800 band as far as people listing to them on scanners if you work in that feild you can still here them. As I said before each county is set up a little diffrent.

 

[EngineerZ]

And a link to the changes most of it was for the inputs to the sites and attorney changes it names the controll point still list Duke Energy in Hendricks County that is where the local paper work gos through.

The control point has nothing to do with "where the paperwork goes through." That would be the licensee and contact addresses. (Trust me, I file things in ULS all the time...) The control point is supposed to be the location that has operational control of the radio system. They just didn't bother to update the control point in this case because the license is not in use and will be canceled at the end of rebanding.

Duke now has several EA geographic (non-site-specific) licenses that cover Hamilton county and that is where those operations are probably now found (but not monitorable...) Callsigns include WQBF209, WQFD568, WQFD569, WQFD570, and WQFD517.

--z

 

[SCPD]

All the calls you listed are NOT for Hamilton county click location and it will tell you what county they are in as far as filing on ULS so do I. And KNBX 830 is not being canceled you did not read the links.
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applTransLog.jsp?applID=4172640

If it was being canceled they would have done that not update it and put up new Antennas and change the inputs. The changes where for rebanding and Not all have to reband Public safety has the option to reband or opt out and some other utilties can get Special condtions to remain on there bands If they HAD to move so would IPL and they have not it is a case by case state by state what is done through cordination such as APCO and 800 transtion admin.

 

[EngineerZ]

All the calls you listed are NOT for Hamilton county click location and it will tell you what county they are in as far as filing on ULS so do I.

WQFD568, WQFD569, WQFD570, and WQFD571 are geographic licenses for BEA067 which is the Indianapolis basic economic area that covers all of central Indiana (including Hamilton County.) Since they are EA licenses, they do not have a location tab, they have a market tab which will tell you which Basic Economic Area the license is valid in. If you click the "Map License" link, ULS will show you that area on a map. (You can turn on county borders on the map options section and hit "apply" if you want to see the individual counties that make up the EA.)

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/ULSGis/ULS...nse+-+WQFD568++++-+Duke+Energy+Carolinas,+LLC

What this means is that Duke is free to build towers on this license anywhere in the EA as long as they keep their contour inside the assigned area. They do not have to license individual sites with the FCC. Normally private industrial users don't get this type of license as they are for SMRs like Nextel. However, if you look at the narrative/rule waiver application attached to the initial application for these licenses, it explains the whole rebanding frequency swap with Nextel. They probably went this route specifically because it gives them the flexibility they need to deploy a cellular-like system like Harmony.

See:
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applAdmin.jsp?applID=2793186#

And KNBX 830 is not being canceled you did not read the links.

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applTransLog.jsp?applID=4172640

If it was being canceled they would have done that not update it and put up new Antennas and change the inputs. The changes where for rebanding and Not all have to reband Public safety has the option to reband or opt out and some other utilties can get Special condtions to remain on there bands

It's not in the links. What I am saying is that Nextel is sitting on this license until rebanding is completed, at which time they will cancel the license. The channels on this license are set aside as replacement channels for the public safety NPSPAC channels which are moving down as a block from 866-869 MHz to 851-854 Mhz. If Duke was allowed to stay on the 851 MHz freqs, they would likely disrupt the existing NPSPAC channel plan laid out by the Region 14 committee and the plan would have to be reworked, affecting SAFE-T and local agencies across the entire state. Rebanding is NOT optional for NPSPAC or licensees in the former general category as the plan is that all NPSPAC channels are being traded one-for-one, period. For example, any agency using 866.3625 today will be using 851.3625 when rebanding is done.

The new antenna is a procedural action to show Nextel has the channel cleared for the maximum allowed radius (70 miles) around the former location. If there had been other incumbents in the way, they would have blocked frequency coordination and Nextel would have had to relocate those licensees as well.

If they HAD to move so would IPL and they have not it is a case by case state by state what is done through cordination such as APCO and 800 transtion admin.

IPL did not have to move because the channels they have are not General Category channels. The channels IPL has are in the B/ILT pool (and above 854.75 MHz) and those channels are not affected by rebanding. In fact, IPL couldn't move anywhere else even if they wanted to. By the way, the 800 MHz transition administrator does not perform frequency coordination and APCO only does so for public safety entities. Utilities must use a B/ILT coodinator like UTC or EWA.

To summarize, Duke has moved the operations on KNBX830 to the EA licenses I cited above. It's all spelled out in the Description of Transaction document found on application no 2771284.

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applAdminAttachments.jsp?applID=2771284#

--z

P.S. For those of you wondering why I'm going into all of this, I think it's a useful excercise to give others insight into the rebanding process and how complicated it is...

 

[powerlineman]

Psi

Yes, it looks like Motorola really sold PSI a bill of goods with that Harmony system. I find it interesting that when M/A-COM sells someone a new 800 MHz system with serious issues, folks call it snake oil, call for investigations, and say this wouldn't have happened if the organization had just bought Motorola. But when Motorola sells a lemon or doesn't provide near the coverage the users expected, folks say things like "what a shame" or they talk about how more money needs to be squeezed out of taxpayers to get the problem fixed (as in the Hancock County thread).

--z

Let me clarify what I think is a "shameful. " I think it's a shame that Public Service Company of Indiana was a solid company. It's a shame to see wires holding rotten poles up along the road. It's a shame that my town used to have it's own serviceman but, now you have to wait on one for at least an hour to respond. It's a shame that they closed all of the local offices. It's a shame to see a group on non-English speaking line crews to roll into town after a big storm. It's a shame that new hires don't receive a pension or post retirement healthcare. It's a shame that they don't replace retiree's. It's a shame they bought a crappy Harmony system.

 

[SCPD]

Well said ! And all I know is I worked along side with Duke/Cinergy for sevral years and have a lot of contacts and know what they are doing in Hamilton County as far as the other countys who knows I do know that Duke in Hamilton County still have the KNBX830 and will have and have been on it and testing on it. As for this post I am done.
Thanks to all for your input.

 

[kb9sxk]

Duke energy owns their own NEXTEL System. it is a Motorola Harmony System. Functionally it is the same as NEXTEL but customer owned. They own the frequencies and have sites located to serve their needs where NEXTEL does not cover.

You mean IDEN?

 

[Viper43]

Yes, it looks like Motorola really sold PSI a bill of goods with that Harmony system. I find it interesting that when M/A-COM sells someone a new 800 MHz system with serious issues, folks call it snake oil, call for investigations, and say this wouldn't have happened if the organization had just bought Motorola. But when Motorola sells a lemon or doesn't provide near the coverage the users expected, folks say things like "what a shame" or they talk about how more money needs to be squeezed out of taxpayers to get the problem fixed (as in the Hancock County thread).

--z

Seems odd that you being a member since 2002 you have a total of 12 posts and your claiming to suddenly have all this "valuable information". What I have seen in your posts is that read what you want to and then make your own conclusions, ignoring the rest of the information. Nothing you have written in this thread or the Hamilton Co thread has any proof of your points. And if you really did read these threads completly you'd know that your incorrect. You also wouldn't have used the SAFET issue in Hancock Co or taxpayer comment either because if you really knew what you were talking about you'd know the Motorola has to fix issues like Hancock Co. has at THIER expense, not the taxpayers expense as part of their contract with the state.

V

 

[EngineerZ]

Seems odd that you being a member since 2002 you have a total of 12 posts and your claiming to suddenly have all this "valuable information".

Are you challenging my expertise based on the number of posts I've made to this board? Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to actively participate (with kids and all...), but I do lurk quite a bit on the IN, MI, and OH forums because that is where I do a lot of my work professionally. (BTW, I am located in Ohio but I am a native Hoosier.) I pick up a lot of good tips on what's happening in the "real world" by reading these forums.

To give you an idea where I am coming from, I am a licensed professional engineer who has been employed in the telecom industry for 17 years, spending nearly the last 10 doing land mobile radio work. I have built LMR systems using Kenwood, Motorola and M/A-COM infrastructure. I have bought mobiles and portables from those vendors well as a couple others like Tait. I like to think I have a little experience in this area, but I can always learn more.

What I have seen in your posts is that read what you want to and then make your own conclusions, ignoring the rest of the information. Nothing you have written in this thread or the Hamilton Co thread has any proof of your points.

Huh? I have posted URLs backing up many of my statements in these two threads. I wouldn't have jumped in at all on the Hamilton County thread except for the fact the post I responded to was specifically wrong and I set the record straight with a URL to prove it! And if you need me to back up my points about ISSI and P25 interoperablity, I can dig up some links, but nothing I said in that post was particularly difficult to verify. Here are a couple links though:

M/A-COM / Motorola P25 Interop -> http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=758

Nice paper on ISSI and mobility between P25 networks -> http://www.eads-ps.com/pdfs/ISSI WHITE PAPER - FINAL.pdf

My post in this thread that you responded to was a subjective observation I made that folks on this board (and the scanning community in general) tend to hold a significant pro-Motorola bias. It came after I had just read about the snake oil M/A-COM sells... Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the snake oil Motorola sells? (like maybe Harmony...) The point of my post was to get people to realize that Motorola does screw up once in a while and that perhaps they should look past their biases. I specifically took the opportunity of the Duke Harmony system to show on this board that both vendors have issues. In my experience, success is mainly determined by not the vendor, but by customer participation, either by having the proper internal resources or unbiased third-party consultants manage the project.

And if you really did read these threads completly you'd know that your incorrect. You also wouldn't have used the SAFET issue in Hancock Co or taxpayer comment either because if you really knew what you were talking about you'd know the Motorola has to fix issues like Hancock Co. has at THIER expense, not the taxpayers expense as part of their contract with the state.

Again, my comment was not about the reality of the situation but how it's perceived by this community. In that thread you pointed out that Motorola is on the hook at least to some degree to fix the situation. That may very well be true. However, the thread as a whole does not cast Motorola in a particularly unfavorable light. The second post infers that problem was simply that not enough taxpayer money was thrown at the problem or, worse yet, it cynically recognizes that Motorola messed up but we should accept it and have the taxpayers cough up more money. Where's the outrage with Motorola? Maybe I missed it. Seems to me that if this were a M/A-COM system that had the very same results, the board would be filled with a lot louder disdain for SAFE-T. Yes, that's my opinion and your welcome to not share it. But rather than disagree with me, you went for an ad hominem attack. Nice...

--z

P.S. Sorry for being OT folks, but I just couldn't let this go....

 

[SCPD]

This link is the official letter from the FCC on Rebanding and the use of the 800 Transtion Admin that they do more than just public safty and it also states they may NOT have to move if an agrement is reached between Public Safty and Nextel/Sprint. 800 TA does have the right to cordinat these. curently there is NO issues facing Duke or Nextel for Hamilton County.This ony is for Hamilton County. The FCC would NOT have approved KNBX830 If any thing was to change for rebanding. Rebanding has already begun in Indiana MECA has already moved there MDT Pager systems down to the 851-853 range. The only license for the 851.3625 witch was Duke Primary for hamilton county is Indiana State police had 1 state wide lic for that and have not been using it or plan on using it so they gave it up just like MECA gave up sevral for Safe T to use. Granted there has been sevral changes of the 800 reconfig and there will be plenty more. And by the way the Motorola Harmony and the IDEN use 800 meg freqs so they will not be off 800 all together. If any one wants to read just a small part on that system here is a Link http://www.motorola.com/governmenta...US/NonXMLDocs/rc130-2001_Harmony_Brochure.pdf

FCC LINK
http://www.fcc.gov/pshs/spectrum/800mhz/bandreconfiguration/downloads/notice3-7-2005.pdf

 

[SCPD]

No updates on Duke Energy but the dead line for rebanding is June 26th 2008 the FCC released a note about it today and if any one wants a waiver for more time it looks like it might be a little Difficult for them. If any one wants to look at it here is the link. So it looks like we may see a rush of rebanding in the next couple of months.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-23A1.pdf