El Paso Encrypted

[CapSS92]

Well, it was good while it lasted. They City of El Paso is going encrypted starting this weekend per my radio tech buddies. I knew that the PD tactical channels were already encrypted but it looks like all the channels from PD and FD are doing it. I don't know any more details so I can't tell you what kind of encryption is being used but this sure bites.

 

[Ensnared]

What about the S.O.?

 

[BinaryMode]

That just gets me on how cities feel the need to encrypt fire too.

 

[Ensnared]

That just gets me on how cities feel the need to encrypt fire too.

Yes, it annoys me as well. Why encrypt a fireground?

In some cases, I can see the logic of encrypting.

Kerrville has a forensic state hospital with many infamous individuals passing through. For some of the long-term chronic cases that remain there for years, their behavior sometimes defines their identity.

Putting this on the air might present a problem.

Big Spring, Texas has followed suit. I don't know if this has anything to do with Big Spring State Hospital or the floating turds responsible for encrypting everything, sorry jackasses.

Actually, I was surprised to learn that El Paso has been in the clear for so long since it is on the border.

 

[CapSS92]

EPSO has been encrypted for several years now. I can see encoding the hospitals for HIPPA reasons but I agree with the rest. Fireground comms are the best. I guess that's the way everyone is going now.

 

[Harold]

EPSO has been encrypted for several years now. I can see encoding the hospitals for HIPPA reasons but I agree with the rest. Fireground comms are the best. I guess that's the way everyone is going now.

Radio transmissions are exempt from HIPAA.

 

[Nomore1007]

EPSO has been encrypted for several years now. I can see encoding the hospitals for HIPPA reasons but I agree with the rest. Fireground comms are the best. I guess that's the way everyone is going now.

Funny, I was listening right now, and the Hospitals are not encrypted, just the rest of the FD. We should start a petition or something. We need to be able to oversight what our government does.

 

[rattlerbb01]

Funny, I was listening right now, and the Hospitals are not encrypted, just the rest of the FD. We should start a petition or something. We need to be able to oversight what our government does.

Good luck, if my local agencies that I have a voting say in ever encrypt anything other than LE tactical or school comms, you bet I will have a lot to say at commissioners court. Hopefully a group there can step up and make a case for why it goes against transparency and real, not perceived, public safety.

 

[BinaryMode]

So here's the thing. There are non profit groups (I know of one of them) and a lawyer that are slowly making sure all states have illicit drugs made legal under the guise of better prison management (for lack of the right terms). This is their agenda and they are slowly but surely succeeding. It is my opinion they are succeeding because the state just wants the tax revenue and could care less about a society (Paul Harvey knew about this...). (And the state could care less about making a correctional institution a CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION. In this sense I mean real prison reform. Making what are illicit drugs legal to completely hose over a family and create yet more rehabilitation centers. But I digress).

Having said all that, we as scanner enthusiasts, the Press, THE PEOPLE need the same stance with the use of a non profit advocacy group and a lawyer or two. (There are actual groups that specialize in Supreme Court cases). I don't advocate for all channels to be unencrypted for obvious reasons. But dispatch channels for all state and local Comms pertaining to public safety should be unencrypted in the interest of public safety and transparency. You know your local government is too big for their britches when they encrypt the fire department for god sakes.

You could even campaign and spread the word and get enough signatures to have the issue plastered on the ballot. How many times do you see this stupid initiative or whatever on the ballot election after election and wonder how it got there? There are groups that you can pay that have people go around with clipboards collecting signatures. That's how. You've probably seen them roaming around Walmart parking lots and in front of grocery stores.

In a nutshell, governments (local, state and federal) in this the 21st century are waaay out of hand (world-wide in fact) and seem to go out of bounds on a lot of things.

We the people are pissed!

I yield back the balance of my time... LOL

 

[Ensnared]

So here's the thing. There are non profit groups (I know of one of them) and a lawyer that are slowly making sure all states have illicit drugs made legal under the guise of better prison management (for lack of the right terms). This is their agenda and they are slowly but surely succeeding. It is my opinion they are succeeding because the state just wants the tax revenue and could care less about a society (Paul Harvey knew about this...). (And the state could care less about making a correctional institution a CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION. In this sense I mean real prison reform. Making what are illicit drugs legal to completely hose over a family and create yet more rehabilitation centers. But I digress).

Having said all that, we as scanner enthusiasts, the Press, THE PEOPLE need the same stance with the use of a non profit advocacy group and a lawyer or two. (There are actual groups that specialize in Supreme Court cases). I don't advocate for all channels to be unencrypted for obvious reasons. But dispatch channels for all state and local Comms pertaining to public safety should be unencrypted in the interest of public safety and transparency. You know your local government is too big for their britches when they encrypt the fire department for god sakes.

You could even campaign and spread the word and get enough signatures to have the issue plastered on the ballot. How many times do you see this stupid initiative or whatever on the ballot election after election and wonder how it got there? There are groups that you can pay that have people go around with clipboards collecting signatures. That's how. You've probably seen them roaming around Walmart parking lots and in front of grocery stores.

In a nutshell, governments (local, state and federal) in this the 21st century are waaay out of hand (world-wide in fact) and seem to go out of bounds on a lot of things.

We the people are pissed!

I yield back the balance of my time... LOL

Yawn, LOL. Thanks for getting me sleepy for bed.

 

[mmckenna]

I don't advocate for all channels to be unencrypted for obvious reasons. But dispatch channels for all state and local Comms pertaining to public safety should be unencrypted in the interest of public safety and transparency.

No. You don't have the background to make statements like this with any level of authority. I get that you are passionate about the hobby, but you don't have the full picture here.

If you think that a hobbyist with a scanner is the only way that there can be any transparency, then you don't understand how things work.

There are well documented reasons why public safety communications needs to be encrypted. It's been beat to death on this site and there's no reason for me to retype it all. Go back to some of the posts from before you joined and read the background on this.

You know your local government is too big for their britches when they encrypt the fire department for god sakes.

Has nothing to do with being "too bg for their britches".
It has everything to do with protecting individuals going through some of the worst days of their life. That should not be a form of entertainment for anyone.

Locally they are considering encrypting fire channels. Reason is that they've had a lot of issues with the following:
-Social media posts sharing identities of people killed in accidents or other incidents before their family can be properly notified. This is a basic dignity thing that social media scanner sites choose to ignore for the sake of getting that "wow" factor out there first. Since they cannot control themselves, the fire departments are happy to solve this problem with the tools they have.
-We've had individuals, CERT as well as RACES individuals that have decided to add fire channels to their radios with transmit enabled. In major fires, these individuals have chosen to hop on frequencies they are not licensed for, not authorized to be on, and should know better. They've asked for updates, they've tried to offer advice, and they've generally got in the way of individuals doing their job. Again, people that are unable to control themselves, so the fire departments are happy to solve this problem with the tools they have.

This is the government protecting the first responders because of morons that are unable to control themselves. If you want to get mad at someone, find each individual/hobbyist/ham that thinks they should program up their Baofeng to transmit on public safety frequencies and then beat their radio into a greasy spot on the ground. I'm happy to help with this, and I know a LOT of professionals that would happily join in also.

We the people are pissed!

I yield back the balance of my time... LOL

No. YOU are pissed. Many of us understand why encryption is happening. Many of us have tried to explain it to hobbyists, but they don't want to listen. Many of us that are professionals and work in the industry have been making this point for a very long time.

Individuals with social media accounts and scanners have shown over and over again that they cannot be trusted with providing basic dignity to families, or not sharing information that may put first responders at risk.

Individuals with radios that don't understand why they should not be programming them to transmit where they are not licensed or permitted seem to keep doing it. Owning a radio does not make one a first responder, and it does not give the right to interfere with those that are.

Ham radio operators that consistently misinterpret the rules, and then encourage others to do the same thing. A ham radio license provides zero authority to be transmitting outside the amateur radio bands. RACES/ARES/CERT need to get their people under control.

Don't blame the first responders that are trying to do their jobs and get home to their families at the end of their shift.

 

[n0xvz]

No. You don't have the background to make statements like this with any level of authority. I get that you are passionate about the hobby, but you don't have the full picture here.

If you think that a hobbyist with a scanner is the only way that there can be any transparency, then you don't understand how things work.

There are well documented reasons why public safety communications needs to be encrypted. It's been beat to death on this site and there's no reason for me to retype it all. Go back to some of the posts from before you joined and read the background on this.



Has nothing to do with being "too bg for their britches".
It has everything to do with protecting individuals going through some of the worst days of their life. That should not be a form of entertainment for anyone.

Locally they are considering encrypting fire channels. Reason is that they've had a lot of issues with the following:
-Social media posts sharing identities of people killed in accidents or other incidents before their family can be properly notified. This is a basic dignity thing that social media scanner sites choose to ignore for the sake of getting that "wow" factor out there first. Since they cannot control themselves, the fire departments are happy to solve this problem with the tools they have.
-We've had individuals, CERT as well as RACES individuals that have decided to add fire channels to their radios with transmit enabled. In major fires, these individuals have chosen to hop on frequencies they are not licensed for, not authorized to be on, and should know better. They've asked for updates, they've tried to offer advice, and they've generally got in the way of individuals doing their job. Again, people that are unable to control themselves, so the fire departments are happy to solve this problem with the tools they have.

This is the government protecting the first responders because of morons that are unable to control themselves. If you want to get mad at someone, find each individual/hobbyist/ham that thinks they should program up their Baofeng to transmit on public safety frequencies and then beat their radio into a greasy spot on the ground. I'm happy to help with this, and I know a LOT of professionals that would happily join in also.



No. YOU are pissed. Many of us understand why encryption is happening. Many of us have tried to explain it to hobbyists, but they don't want to listen. Many of us that are professionals and work in the industry have been making this point for a very long time.

Individuals with social media accounts and scanners have shown over and over again that they cannot be trusted with providing basic dignity to families, or not sharing information that may put first responders at risk.

Individuals with radios that don't understand why they should not be programming them to transmit where they are not licensed or permitted seem to keep doing it. Owning a radio does not make one a first responder, and it does not give the right to interfere with those that are.

Ham radio operators that consistently misinterpret the rules, and then encourage others to do the same thing. A ham radio license provides zero authority to be transmitting outside the amateur radio bands. RACES/ARES/CERT need to get their people under control.

Don't blame the first responders that are trying to do their jobs and get home to their families at the end of their shift.

Not directed at mmckenna...

As a law-abiding citizen who enjoys listening to public safety communications, I don't like encryption. However, I spent enough time using encrypted communications in the military to understand there are reasons for encryption. Many of those reasons are compounded by the "wannabes" that overstep their license/qualifications/experience/whatever and cause issues for public safety officials. Yes, I program public safety frequencies into my radios. I inhibit transmit or set the offset to somewhere in the ham band (for which I’m licensed) on those frequencies.

I don’t like encryption, but grumbling about it on the internet isn’t going to change the mind of any decision-maker. So, I’ll listen to what I can while trying not to make the situation any “worse” than it already is (in some locations). YMMV...

 

[BinaryMode]

I get that in today's world and the subject of social media can be brought up, but my view on it is that public safety has been unencrypted since what? The 1930s? And it's never posed a massive issue like I see used as an excuse all of a sudden with the advent of digital and the deployment of encryption and the issue of the public being able to listen. It seems with digital it is very easy to throw the encryption switch thus they do so. And yes, the government (in all forms) wants to encrypt and yet they want you (the common man, er insert pronoun here____) to not use encryption in all its facets... In India for example they banned encrypted messaging. Other countries are looking to do the same thing and I'm sure in the interest of "terrorism" they'll try that here in the states.

Lets face it. Broadcastify and the media's use of Broadcastify would simply not exist without transparency.

There is indeed good and bad in this hobby. It's like the ownership and hobby of guns. It's like anything in this universe based on polarity. Think about it. Good and bad, up and down, hot and cold, positive and negative, etc. Nothing is ever cut and dry. And again, there's certainly two sides to this equation to using or not using encryption. This is why I concede that not all channels should be encrypted - for obvious reasons.

 

[BinaryMode]

Social media posts sharing identities of people killed in accidents or other incidents before their family can be properly notified.

I have never heard the victims name on a radio prior to next of kin. NEVER!

 

[Echo4Thirty]

We the people are pissed!

The issue is "WE" the people are split into groups:
- Those that want ENC turned off
- Those that think LEO/GOVT needs enc to protect us
- Those who could not care less for whatever reason (including those who are completely unaware that radios are encrypted)

I would suspect the third is the vast majority of people. The biggest advocate for unencrypting is the press and they are simple to placate by renting/giving them access to encrypted radios. Its what we did on a previous system. They were happy to pay the cops per month to have RX only encrypted radios.

 

[IAmSixNine]

Heres a thought, If you have races and wana bees out there broadcasting on a fire dept channel, go after them legally. Dont use it as an excuse to encrypt all comms. Those people will continue to do stuff, illegally, with their radios until they are caught and punished.
EDIT: I have no problem with ENC on appropriate channels. I think its a great compromise to public safety and scanner enthusiasts. I do agree that SOME channels should use ENC. But i dont agree that ENC an entire radio system is good. Its just an opinion. Carrys no weight, so no need to debate. LOL

 

[Echo4Thirty]

I get that in today's world and the subject of social media can be brought up, but my view on it is that public safety has been unencrypted since what? The 1930s? And it's never posed a massive issue like I see used as an excuse all of a sudden with the advent of digital and the deployment of encryption and the issue of the public being able to listen. It seems with digital it is very easy to throw the encryption switch thus they do so. And yes, the government (in all forms) wants to encrypt and yet they want you (the common man, er insert pronoun here____) to not use encryption in all its facets... In India for example they banned encrypted messaging. Other countries are looking to do the same thing and I'm sure in the interest of "terrorism" they'll try that here in the states.

Things have VASTLY changed in communications over the past couple of decades. In the 1930s one could not hop on your phone to listen to what was going on with the police radios, or post to all of your buddies your criticism of how the cops were doing their jobs. Modern social media has changed radio reception from a very niche, local occurrence to a global instant one where anyone around the world can go to a site or a phone and listen to any number of agencies. Worse, bad actors can use the same tools to hinder public safety responses. There were no 'First Amendment" auditors running around and people generally minded their own damn business. You heard something on the radio, you kept it to yourself and didnt try to become the next internet star. Folks didnt pretend to be the cops like they do now (or even pretend firemen).

Advances in encryption technologies have also made it where any joe blow can utilize it free or cheap. No longer is it limited to federal governments with heavy wallets. Encryption has been free in public safety radios for DECADES now as well as consumer radios. The average person uses encrypted communications constantly on their phones and computers.

I am a radio guy, both professionally and as a hobbyist. I see both sides. I also see that the next generation of radio systems are completely IP based with encryption turned on by default. One of our EMS agencies has been LTE/WiFI/IP for a couple of years now and while they have gateways into traditional LMR systems for interoperability, only ONCE for a short time have hey had to revert back to LMR and it was a scheduled upgrade to their core. You dont have to look that far to find unmonitorable voice communications. Home Depot and Barnes & Noble are using WiFi radios. Some of the Houston tow guys are using PTToC 'radios' for their business needs and love that they get nationwide ENCRYPTED communications that their competition cant listen in and snipe calls. Encrypted LMR is a very temporary issue for scanner folks. Moto and Harris are very actively pushing IP gateways for their P25 systems (Wave/BeOn/Critical Connect). They see the writing on the wall. Make something IP voice and you can route it over existing data networks with ease and have complete privacy for your communications, much like your desk phone. Hell even route it TO your IP desk phone.

 

[mmckenna]

I agree. The anti-encryption argument is about 20 years too late.

For any scanner listener that thinks they are the one that is going to ensure "transparency", it's obvious you don't understand how this stuff works. Anyone that wants to do anything sneaky isn't going to do it over the radio.

 

[mmckenna]

Heres a thought, If you have races and wana bees out there broadcasting on a fire dept channel, go after them legally. Dont use it as an excuse to encrypt all comms. Those people will continue to do stuff, illegally, with their radios until they are caught and punished.

It is extremely difficult to actually catch someone in the act and have the proof necessary to bring it to a court case. The job of the public safety agencies isn't to chase ham radio operators around. The job of ham radio operators is to stay in their lane.

As for getting punished, that does happen when they are caught, yet it doesn't deter all the others that are incapable of comprehending Part 97 rules.

EDIT: I have no problem with ENC on appropriate channels. I think its a great compromise to public safety and scanner enthusiasts. I do agree that SOME channels should use ENC. But i dont agree that ENC an entire radio system is good. Its just an opinion. Carrys no weight, so no need to debate. LOL

Never once in any meeting I've been in, has any Chief or radio system engineer ever uttered the phrase "But what about the scanner hobbyists????"

Public safety radio systems are not installed with the goal of providing entertainment or information to scanner listeners.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

Never once in any meeting I've been in, has any Chief or radio system engineer ever uttered the phrase "But what about the scanner hobbyists????"

Public safety radio systems are not installed with the goal of providing entertainment or information to scanner listeners.

I have however heard the manufacturer state to the agency: "The radios come with encryption, do you want to turn it on so you dont have to worry about anyone listening in?"