Emission Designator Differences

[dwparker94]

So I am trying to figure out what emission designators I would want for a license. Here is my question, there is 7K60FXD (Data), 7K60FXE (Voice), and 7K60FXW (Data and Voice). Do I have to license my frequencies for all three or can I just use the 7K60FXW (Data and Voice). Since this is DMR, I want to be able to use voice, GPS data, text messaging, etc on all frequencies with the license so there is no "Oh crap, I just sent data on a voice only frequency". And if anyone can help me with the P25 designators, I will owe you breakfast! I know of P25 and general use, but that is it. If it helps with the P25 stuff, we will be using something like the XTS5000 or APX series (in the future, we do not have the money for my expensive taste in radios). I don't even know the full capabilities of P25 because I have never been able to legally play with them. I am just trying to license for everything now, instead of having to modify the license down the road.

 

[RaleighGuy]

So I am trying to figure out what emission designators

Sounds like you really need the help of a frequency coordinator that deals with this stuff, and many other questions that will come up during the licensing process. Money well spent.

 

[mmckenna]

Just license for E, D and W for each mode you plan to use. There's really not a limitation on what you can license for as long as it is permissible for use on the frequencies you want to be licensed on.

License for Analog, DMR and P25, if that's what you plan on using. Not uncommon to see licenses with multiple modes.

 

[dwparker94]

Sounds like you really need the help of a frequency coordinator that deals with this stuff, and many other questions that will come up during the licensing process. Money well spent

What is the use of a frequency coordinator when I do not understand the limitations of each designator? Is the frequency coordinator going to program my radios and develop the communication plan for me? Is the frequency coordinator going to come in and teach everyone what is allowed and not allowed on each frequency? Does the frequency coordinator pay the fines if my system does something that results in FCC action? I hate asking questions in the radio world because the answer is always "pay someone else to do it", not "Great on you for trying to understand something you don't know". When I am going to pay hundreds of dollars for frequency coordination, I am going to know what I want and how to use when I deal with them. With your logic, my previous frequency coordinator should of explained not use 7K60FXD on two public safety frequencies that are licensed for 11K2F3E only. Yet, the frequency coordinator didn't since it is up to me to know how to legally utilize the frequencies.

 

[K9KLC]

What is the use of a frequency coordinator when I do not understand the limitations of each designator? Is the frequency coordinator going to program my radios and develop the communication plan for me? Is the frequency coordinator going to come in and teach everyone what is allowed and not allowed on each frequency? Does the frequency coordinator pay the fines if my system does something that results in FCC action? I hate asking questions in the radio world because the answer is always "pay someone else to do it", not "Great on you for trying to understand something you don't know". When I am going to pay hundreds of dollars for frequency coordination, I am going to know what I want and how to use when I deal with them. With your logic, my previous frequency coordinator should of explained not use 7K60FXD on two public safety frequencies that are licensed for 11K2F3E only. Yet, the frequency coordinator didn't since it is up to me to know how to legally utilize the frequencies.

Emission Designator - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

 

[dwparker94]

Just license for E, D and W for each mode you plan to use. There's really not a limitation on what you can license for as long as it is permissible for use on the frequencies you want to be licensed on.

License for Analog, DMR and P25, if that's what you plan on using. Not uncommon to see licenses with multiple modes.

Emission Designator - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

That chart does not do a single thing to answer the question. Is listing 7K60FXW only the same as listing the frequency twice, one for 7K60FXD and one for7K60FXE.

 

[K9KLC]

What is the use of a frequency coordinator when I do not understand the limitations of each designator? Is the frequency coordinator going to program my radios and develop the communication plan for me? Is the frequency coordinator going to come in and teach everyone what is allowed and not allowed on each frequency? Does the frequency coordinator pay the fines if my system does something that results in FCC action? I hate asking questions in the radio world because the answer is always "pay someone else to do it", not "Great on you for trying to understand something you don't know". When I am going to pay hundreds of dollars for frequency coordination, I am going to know what I want and how to use when I deal with them. With your logic, my previous frequency coordinator should of explained not use 7K60FXD on two public safety frequencies that are licensed for 11K2F3E only. Yet, the frequency coordinator didn't since it is up to me to know how to legally utilize the frequencies.

Not to be rude, but it's up to the license holder to understand and know what is allowed and not allowed.

Edit: Sorry I did not mean to come off as rude, nor condescending. I understand you're looking for information here. You perhaps had a bad coordinator from your post or there may have been a miscommunication between you guys. Good luck getting the proper licensing. Honestly a good coordinator will help you get properly licensed and stay legal. Be up front with what you need.

 

[RaleighGuy]

Not to be rude, but it's up to the license holder to understand and know what is allowed and not allowed.

That is what he was telling me, and his reasoning for trying to learn what needs to be done. Additionally, the emission designator list in the wiki doesn't explain what he is asking, it doesn't explain the difference between the usages.

 

[K9KLC]

That is what he was telling me, and his reasoning for trying to learn what needs to be done. Additionally, the emission designator list in the wiki doesn't explain what he is asking, it doesn't explain the difference between the usages.

Then perhaps he needs an RF consultant or a frequency coordinator that can be of more help.
I am not sure from his description exactly what he's trying to do. If he cannot look at the link I posted and figure it out himself, (and its ok if he can't there's a lot there) then he may need help likely beyond these forums or at least something more personal to discuss his business needs and such. I can help with what I can help with as can others here but, without knowing an exact plan for what he needs, I'm not sure really how much anyone can.


I think @mmckenna had some good advice however, if he does that, he would likely be covered.

 

[K9KLC]

That is what he was telling me, and his reasoning for trying to learn what needs to be done. Additionally, the emission designator list in the wiki doesn't explain what he is asking, it doesn't explain the difference between the usages.

I forget at times people don't know what I know, just like pople explaining things to me on occasion think I know what they know. (this happens a lot). I apologize for my poor wording. That being said, I still think your answer with the "right" frequency coordinator would be what the fellow needs. I've seen some of those guys be pretty helpful to people thru out the years. I'd think if he was very explicit in what he wanted, he'd end up getting the correct licensing.

 

[dwparker94]

Then perhaps he needs an RF consultant or a frequency coordinator that can be of more help.
I am not sure from his description exactly what he's trying to do. If he cannot look at the link I posted and figure it out himself, (and its ok if he can't there's a lot there) then he may need help likely beyond these forums or at least something more personal to discuss his business needs and such. I can help with what I can help with as can others here but, without knowing an exact plan for what he needs, I'm not sure really how much anyone can.


I think @mmckenna had some good advice however, if he does that, he would likely be covered.

It is a simple question. Is listing 7K60FXW only the same as listing the frequency twice, one for 7K60FXD and one for7K60FXE. Does Voice and Data Combination = Voice single + Data single.

 

[dwparker94]

Not to be rude, but it's up to the license holder to understand and know what is allowed and not allowed.

I am the license holder.

 

[K9KLC]

That is what he was telling me, and his reasoning for trying to learn what needs to be done. Additionally, the emission designator list in the wiki doesn't explain what he is asking, it doesn't explain the difference between the usages.

You are correct but it's at least something to start with. I didn't know if he knew that existed.

 

[im800mhz]

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[mmckenna]

That chart does not do a single thing to answer the question. Is listing 7K60FXW only the same as listing the frequency twice, one for 7K60FXD and one for7K60FXE.

OK, I think looking at the FCC Part 90 rules section would be a good idea. Here's some sections below to get you started.

W means you'll be using more than just one. If you are only going to be running data over DMR, then you need to license for the "D" emission. If you are only going to be running voice, then "E". If you plan to use the channel for BOTH, then license "W". Read the following sections for some descriptions about data transmissions.

In 90.207:
A—Telegraphy for aural reception.
B—Telegraphy for machine reception.
C—Facsimile.
D—Data, telemetry, and telecommand.
E—Voice.
N—No transmitted information.
W—Combination of the above

It sounds like what you are asking is if you are using voice traffic with GPS location data tagged, you want to know which emissions you should request. Fair question.

In the same rule section (90.207), it says:
(l) For stations in the Public Safety and Industrial/Business Pools utilizing digital voice modulation, in either the scrambled or unscrambled mode, F1E or G1E emission will be authorized. Authorization to use digital voice emissions is construed to include the use of F1D, F2D, G1D, or G2D emission subject to the provisions of § 90.233.

§ 90.233 Base/mobile non-voice operations.​

The use of A1D, A2D, F1D, F2D, G1D, or G2D emission may be authorized to base/mobile operations in accordance with the following limitations and requirements.

(a) Licensees employing non-voice communications are not relieved of their responsibility to cooperate in the shared use of land mobile radio channels. See also §§ 90.403 and 90.173(a) and (b).
(b) Authorization for non-voice emission may be granted only on frequencies subject to the coordination requirements set forth in § 90.175. Non-voice operations on frequencies not subject to these requirements are permitted only a secondary basis to voice communications.
(c) Provisions of this section do not apply to authorizations for paging, telemetry, radiolocation, automatic vehicle monitoring systems (AVM), radioteleprinter, radio call box operations, or authorizations granted pursuant to subpart T of this part.

 

[AM909]

It is a simple question. Is listing 7K60FXW only the same as listing the frequency twice, one for 7K60FXD and one for7K60FXE. Does Voice and Data Combination = Voice single + Data single.

Maybe. I think comes down to how you interpret what they're intent is in the W's "combination of 0 or more of the above" in 47 CFR 2.201(e). That is, whether the specific content types were meant to be used only individually to indicate only that content was ever being sent. This seems like the only rational interpretation. In the pauses between words, are you transmitting nothing, technically requiring "N" as well? (It's talking about content in the last letter, not the actual data it's transformed into before being modulated onto the carrier.)

My licensing guy has asked to trim a list of emissions to remove the dups. I don't remember whether that was to remove the emissions that end in "D" and "E" or the ones that end in "W".

 

[AM909]

Maybe. I think comes down to how you interpret what they're intent is in the W's "combination of 0 or more of the above" in 47 CFR 2.201(e). That is, whether the specific content types were meant to be used only individually to indicate only that content was ever being sent. This seems like the only rational interpretation. In the pauses between words, are you transmitting nothing, technically requiring "N" as well? (It's talking about content in the last letter, not the actual data it's transformed into before being modulated onto the carrier.)

My licensing guy has asked to trim a list of emissions to remove the dups. I don't remember whether that was to remove the emissions that end in "D" and "E" or the ones that end in "W".

He's of the opinion (based on feedback from the coordinators) that the "W" is unnecessary if the "D" and "E" are there. I doubt there's any case law to be found with this IMO-long-in-need-of-simplifying area, but if someone has some time ...

 

[speedway_navigator]

I've always wondered why these types were made so granular since they all fit in the same mask width. The FCC does not regulate what language is spoken so why get nit picky here? If someone only does voice and has FXE but later on adds GPS tracking that would appear to be a violation but would it create an RFI situation when voice did not?

The ETSI specs say
"Slot formats, field definitions, and timing are defined for voice traffic, data traffic, and control signalling."
so maybe the FCC needs a symbol for control signals.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I've always wondered why these types were made so granular since they all fit in the same mask width. The FCC does not regulate what language is spoken so why get nit picky here? If someone only does voice and has FXE but later on adds GPS tracking that would appear to be a violation but would it create an RFI situation when voice did not?

The ETSI specs say
"Slot formats, field definitions, and timing are defined for voice traffic, data traffic, and control signalling."
so maybe the FCC needs a symbol for control signals.

Same reason the save icon is still a 3.5" floppy image. It's a hold over from older days when voice wasn't digtal. In this case, modern digital formats don't change in emission for voice or data as the CAI is agnostic to whether or not it's voice or data. One could even make the argument that it's all data to begin with…as it's C4FM for P25/NXDN and 4FSK for DMR regardless of the payload. Not like the old days where you ran analog voice and AFSK or FSK for combined setups or strictly FSK/GMSK for data and FM for voice.

 

[speedway_navigator]

One could even make the argument that it's all data to begin with

I almost said that but then realized for what ever reason they describe what the data is delivering.