Encryption Reasoning

[muddy mudskipper]

on the digital systems enc or un-enc audio sounds exactly the same [...]

yup. like CRAP.

 

[N_Jay]

. . . but how many times have scannests and hams' come to the aid of agencies because they were listening to the publice service or trunked radio system?!? . . ..

I think that was asked on this board, and the general consensus of the LEOs was that few and far between compared to how many times listening is used to assist criminals.

You can argue about it, but I will defer to the LEOs here.

 

[N_Jay]

yup. like CRAP.

If you say so, sir! :roll:

 

[Voyager]

Thlink about it , terriorists can get scanners that are not approved By the FCC and can monitor anything they want from outside the U.S..

Bull puckey.

Who makes a scanner that can monitor "anything they want"?
(such as iden, tetra, MPT, ProVoice, Passport, Open Sky, EDACS ESK, or ANYTHING encrypted)

ALL the scanner manufacturers only make units that can RECEIVE Cellular FREQUENCIES for non-USA buyers (and some in-USA authorized buyers). They DON'T include any decoding schemes that are not in USA scanners. If they existed you would see them all over eBay.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

I think that was asked on this board, and the general consensus of the LEOs was that few and far between compared to how many times listening is used to assist criminals.

You can argue about it, but I will defer to the LEOs here.

Oh, and there is such a great representation of LEOs on this scanner board that nobody can argue that point. Maybe in some areas that may be true that people don't get involved, but in some areas such as mine it happens all the time. And it IS appreciated as long as the scanner listener does not get personally involved.

The biggest reason for encryption is to keep the public from listening to communications so the LEOs can operate in secret. What naturally follows is the mistrust of the LEOs. How can people elect leaders if they don't know what they, and those they appoint, are doing? Whitewashing the record is not serving the public interest. People have a right to know what their government is doing (or NOT doing). LEOs in an adjacent area have a right to know what is hearing toward their area (that's called interoperability and encryption is contrary to the concept).

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

And it can also be set in the programming so that a unit that is transmitting in encrypted mode can be recieved by a unit that does not have encryption selected .

I don't care how well to 'set up' a system, an XTS1500 will NEVER be able to receive an encrypted signal transmitted on an XTS 2500 or an XTL5000. Its just AIN'T gonna happen.

Then you have the dispatch center trying to explain to the LEO (who had full training on the unit) how to turn the encryprion off so he can talk to his partners.

Joe M.

 

[jpm]

I agree with the police, but EMS is a good candidate for encryption only because of the HIPPA(sp) laws to keep patient information private. I've never heard anyones name over Med Tac freqs, but I suppose if you saw them wheel you neighbor into Ambo 412 and then heard that same ambo number reporting patient info to the hospital it would be a leak of info.

But yeah, encrypting sanitation, what a joke.

If the name isn't used when fire departments tone out EMS calls it isn't a HIPPA issue. I checked that with my system EMS co-ordinator because when I was in Myrtle Beach last summer the EMS was giving medical run reports on the Horry County trunked system to local hospitals. Here in Illinois our cell phone patch to the hospital is very secured.

 

[muddy mudskipper]

If you say so, sir! :roll:

sorry.

i meant to say, "yeah, like crap UNDERWATER!"

 

[N_Jay]

. . . .The biggest reason for encryption is to keep the public from listening to communications so the LEOs can operate in secret. What naturally follows is the mistrust of the LEOs. How can people elect leaders if they don't know what they, and those they appoint, are doing? Whitewashing the record is not serving the public interest. People have a right to know what their government is doing (or NOT doing). LEOs in an adjacent area have a right to know what is hearing toward their area (that's called interoperability and encryption is contrary to the concept).

Joe M.

I am glad you are so good at looking into their hearts and minds, I on the other hand can only go by what I hear in the meetings where the decisions are being made! :roll: :roll:

 

[N_Jay]

I don't care how well to 'set up' a system, an XTS1500 will NEVER be able to receive an encrypted signal transmitted on an XTS 2500 or an XTL5000. Its just AIN'T gonna happen.

Then you have the dispatch center trying to explain to the LEO (who had full training on the unit) how to turn the encryprion off so he can talk to his partners.

Joe M.

If the department has set up partners with one encrypted radio and one non-encrypted, they have an OPERATIONAL problem.

 

[N_Jay]

sorry.

i meant to say, "yeah, like crap UNDERWATER!"

Maybe you need to get rid of your scanner and get a proper radio, or maybe your ebay special needs the proper software (and proper alignment). :roll: :lol:

 

[Voyager]

If the department has set up partners with one encrypted radio and one non-encrypted, they have an OPERATIONAL problem.

Yes, or lack of training, although everyone had to go through a class on the radios BEFORE that district went 'live' on the system. That included how to use the encryption button. Not everyone got 2500s because there wasn't enough money for that, so only a few got 2500s while most got 1500s. What is the answer? Don't use encryption at all. It's THAT simple. Sooner or later, someone's life will be put in jeopardy. THEN they MIGHT get the picture.

Joe M.

 

[Voyager]

I am glad you are so good at looking into their hearts and minds, I on the other hand can only go by what I hear in the meetings where the decisions are being made! :roll: :roll:

Oh, I forgot that you are in ALL meetings EVERYWHERE (even though I never saw you at any).

I bow to your superior omnipotence. :roll:

Mental note: NJ is in favor of secret governments (most likely because he already knows everything they are doing before they do it).

Joe M.

 

[N_Jay]

Yes, or lack of training, although everyone had to go through a class on the radios BEFORE that district went 'live' on the system. That included how to use the encryption button. Not everyone got 2500s because there wasn't enough money for that, so only a few got 2500s while most got 1500s. What is the answer? Don't use encryption at all. It's THAT simple. Sooner or later, someone's life will be put in jeopardy. THEN they MIGHT get the picture.

Joe M.

Then you set up the operational procedures and training to address the issue until the fleet of radios is upgraded. :roll:

Its an easy fix if you think about it with the goal in mind.

You "goal" seems to be the creation of issues for encryption whether they exist or not.

 

[N_Jay]

Oh, I forgot that you are in ALL meetings EVERYWHERE (even though I never saw you at any).

I bow to your superior omnipotence. :roll:

Mental note: NJ is in favor of secret governments (most likely because he already knows everything they are doing before they do it).

Joe M.

You are really getting good at reading 1/2 of what someone writes, reading between the lines, and not remembering what it was the YOU wrote.

" . . The biggest reason for encryption is to keep the public from listening to communications so the LEOs can operate in secret. . . . "
Joe M.

It seems that YOU are the one implying you KNOW the BIGGEST reason. Maybe you are the one implying that "you are in ALL meetings EVERYWHERE"? :roll:

All I implied was that in the meetings I have been in (Many by the way), your assertion has NOT been true. It has never been the BIGGEST reason, it has never even been a BIG reason. In fact, often the lack of the public's ability to monitor has been brought up as a significant concern.

Then you are off on your Herculean leap to "NJ is in favor of secret governments", I guess based on your perspective that anyone who understands and supports the proper use of encryption is in favor of secret governments? :roll: :roll:

Maybe you need to reevaluate your perspective. I think paranoia is setting in. :evil:

 

[grem467]

Maybe you need to get rid of your scanner and get a proper radio, or maybe your ebay special needs the proper software (and proper alignment). :roll: :lol:

yeah no kidding.. I prefer the sound of Astro audio over analog, then again im listening on XTL5000s and XTS5000s with current firmware.. HUGE difference over a 550.00 scanner.

His statement would be kin to trying to watch a TV Station on a cheap black and white TV and saying "It looks like crap, doesnt even have COLOR! they need to go back to the old way!!!"

It kills me all these "digital experts" that whine about how crappy it sounds and talk crap about how analog is so much better, when its simply the quality of the vocoder, host and DSP thats the problem in their scanner (wasnt referring to you muddy, just a general statement..) I hear it constantly from the "expert hammies" on how our system sounds like crap on their scanner. Kinda gets old

[/rant]

 

[williams63]

As a former Police Service Board member..we as a board have seen many sales folks come and go.

I wont bore you with the details of what we did. And still do.

In a basic nutshell:

The Board receives at a general meeting closed to the public, flyers and brochures from the various dealers such a MOT – GE etc.

The Chief of Police will get these fancy high gloss prints, he or she then brings forth the
Nice ‘ stuff ‘ he or she would like.

As a board we must decide if we can afford it. And also be accountable to City Council.

One case comes to mind…

Our Chief was AMAZED at DVP (Digital Voice Protection); he wanted all units to have this.

Like a kid at xmas.it simply wasn’t in the budget.

We opted to pay for 5 hand held units for the Drug Unit.

Keep in mind there is 3 hams on the board.

Mega $$ later we now have the hand helds..40% of the time , the HT’s didn’t work.
Seems if the batt went low, they lost the key !

After 2 yrs, there were no rise NOR fall in drug arrests, monies well spent..Ahh no.

The Chief also wanted all mobiles to have the Spectra W9, we voted that down.

The cost was HUGE!

I should add this is a small city, population 10,000…and the Chief all giddy over the new flyers also wanted a Helicopter..I guess when your not paying the bill , who cares!

That was also voted down.

After 2 years, we voted out the DVP in favour of our VHF system, that was paid for some yrs back.

Many factors by the board were looked at, our first concern was “ Public Accountability “ we lost that when we went Digital.

We lost the eyes and hears out there , the advent of cell phones now gave our dept MUCH more eyes than ever before.

That is the short version of the story..The Chief is now a paper pusher in Toronto.

Crytpo costs $$..plain n simple…it is needed in some cases…but in ours, it was not.

We had submissions from Ham clubs..CB Radio Clubs and General Monitors.

This combined with the cost factor, made any form of ( Ill put this word as the Chair put it ) “ HIDING FROM THE PUBLIC “ prohibitive.

“ Our accountability was shot if we went further with this Crypto “ , said one board member.

Bottom line is cost…and lack of training…it’s a salesman’s world out there , the scare tactics used on us were to say the least almost laughable..good we had folks in the know , who could dispel this stuff.

As for scanners that can one day decode this stuff , it will happen….if you could see the fine print , it reads in a nutshell…” This system maybe monitored by the public from this date fourth , and _________ ( company Name ) assumes no liability thereafter.

Threes more to the events that unfolded.

 

[grem467]

As for scanners that can one day decode this stuff , it will happen

This statement couldnt be further from the truth. Its a violation of LAW to decrypt an encrypted signal, be it radio, WiFi etc. I HIGHLY doubt uniden or GRE will just create a scanner that can do DES, DVP or whatever, they would NEVER get FCC type acceptance for that. With all they can do in firmware these days, bet your bottom dollar it isnt a technical reason they dont do encryption.. its a legal one..

but lets assume for a second that they do, how would one go about getting the key(s)? Not like you are just going to guess it, or you will "signal stalk" it. If you were to guess the key, what about OTAR?

ive said it before and ill say it again, you will see an OpenSky or Provoice scanner LONG before you will see a scanner that has even DVP capabilities, much less DES or AES. In other words, aint happenin.

 

[williams63]

After we did NOT renew our Contract...the competitor , showed us a working demo of a Store Bought Scanner that did decode our DVP.

Glad we didnt waste any more time on these Sales people, who USE scare tactics..Our Laws in Canada are diff...and I wont get into how diff.

Just the same...to see a Regular off the shelf unit , decode DVP and DES was amazing!

 

[kikito]

Oh, I forgot that you are in ALL meetings EVERYWHERE (even though I never saw you at any).

I bow to your superior omnipotence. :roll:

Mental note: NJ is in favor of secret governments (most likely because he already knows everything they are doing before they do it).

Joe M.

LOL! My feelings exactly.

If there's a thread about encryption, N_Jay will be there to save the day!

He'll be there to tell us and treat us all like we are all just "lowly scannerheads" or "looky loos" that don't know any better and the government is always right.....

God forbid that any of us might have technical, critical and important jobs other than him....