Encryption Reasoning

[N_Jay]

After we did NOT renew our Contract...the competitor , showed us a working demo of a Store Bought Scanner that did decode our DVP.

Glad we didnt waste any more time on these Sales people, who USE scare tactics..Our Laws in Canada are diff...and I wont get into how diff.

Just the same...to see a Regular off the shelf unit , decode DVP and DES was amazing!

I don't know what he was showing you, but I have been through enough encryption training to know that;
1) it was NOT a off the shelf scanner
2) IF it was decoding DVP or DES it had the key loaded into it.

 

[N_Jay]

LOL! My feelings exactly.

If there's a thread about encryption, N_Jay will be there to save the day!

He'll be there to tell us and treat us all like we are all just "lowly scannerheads" or "looky loos" that don't know any better and the government is always right.....

God forbid that any of us might have technical, critical and important jobs other than him....

LOL: sorry I did not realize that you too were able to know the "REAL" reason behind all the decisions about using encryption.

I bow to your superior psychic abilities! :roll: :lol:

Why bother to deal with the truth when it is so much easier to believe in your own view of the world. Just spread the rumors. You OBVIOUSLY know what you believe to be true (as you see it) and there is no room in your minds for the possibility you are incorrect.

 

[williams63]

Sorry JAY : it was a simple RS scanner....

Enuff said..

 

[n4voxgill]

After we did NOT renew our Contract...the competitor , showed us a working demo of a Store Bought Scanner that did decode our DVP.
Just the same...to see a Regular off the shelf unit , decode DVP and DES was amazing!

What was the make and model of the so called off the shelf scanner that could decode DVP.

 

[kikito]

LOL: sorry I did not realize that you too were able to know the "REAL" reason behind all the decisions about using encryption.

I bow to your superior psychic abilities! :roll: :lol:

I never did claimed I know everything about encryption and the reasoning behind it's use. In the other hand, YOU have made such claims over and over in the way you answer and what YOU say. So don't twist this around.

I don't even know why you hang around these forums so much when you have said yourself in the past you're not into scanners and everytime someone that works in maintaining communications systems ask about something, you quickly send them off to the so-called "real" communications professional forums or email lists.

So why are you in the forums again besides harrasing and belittling people and throwing your weight around because of your profession?

Why bother to deal with the truth when it is so much easier to believe in your own view of the world....

So in other words and as usual in your condescending ways, YOU are right and everybody else is wrong....


Another example of what I said above about your arrogance and doing exactly what you're condemning and accusing others for doing or being.

 

[williams63]

I didnt mention the small box that was wired into the RS scanner...the box was by no means a ' Professional ' piece of hardware .

Once we seen what was inside , we all were amazed , even the Chief.

Hence we abandoned the DVP , price mostly...but the ability to decode it using parts that costed 30.00 .

The add on looked like a MFJ type box...it was opened for us to look at..keep in mind this was a competitor that showed us...

None the less , he too didnt get any of our tax base either.

Funny how these PRO'S use scare tatctics...not all , but the ones we heard from sure did..it took everything from lafffing at these guys.

Todays isnt much diff...I wen to Motorola in my city to buy a simple 800 Mhz antenna...

After 3 weeks...no one had much of an idea ...I said " see ya " and made a dipole..Ill get a mhz rubber duck again , from the Competitor..

I also cant reveal much here or anywhere...Police Board Members to swear to uphold certain elements of Police Operations.

The box NEED not be FFC type approved BTW...were in Canada the FCC means as much to many of us , as a meter maid in Sweden .

 

[williams63]

If NJ is the sales guy , I can see WHY folks like him , are turned away from Boards such as ours.

The attitude even shines while some of these know it all..perform demo's for us ' Dummies ' NJ NEVER said this , but the sales person did " This is MILITARY GRADE " ..Ok I still cant stop laughing at that one.

" you are the weakest sales man...goodbye "

 

[N_Jay]

Sorry JAY : it was a simple RS scanner....

Enuff said..

Not saying it didn't start life as an RS scanner, but it either had a decoder inside of it or you were being snookered.

I have seem more then my share of "faked" demos, both to "prove" a system works, and to prove it doesn't.

If you were transmitting DVP (with a valid key), the only thing that is going to decode it is a DVP module (or equivalent hardware) loaded with THE SAME KEY.

Its like the 100 MPG carburetor the supposedly exists. Its been "demoed" lots of times!

 

[williams63]

No we were told how it worked.

I will not devludge HOW the key or keys worked!

It worked I saw it , as did our Police Chief and Board Members.


The unit was opened up as well , being a HAM I know what was inside :- )

Have a GREAT DAY : -)

 

[JnglMassiv]

Not saying it didn't start life as an RS scanner, but it either had a decoder inside of it or you were being snookered.
If you were transmitting DVP (with a valid key), the only thing that is going to decode it is a DVP module (or equivalent hardware) loaded with THE SAME KEY.

I'm with N_Jay. I've never heard of a Motorola Securenet decoder, much less one that works in realtime and certainly nothing that can be built from Radio Shack parts. For that matter, I've never heard a legitimate instance of Securenet being cracked under any circumstances. While DVP's 32 bit keylength isn't secure from a national security perspective, it's still pretty good.

 

[n4voxgill]

No we were told how it worked. I will not devludge HOW the key or keys worked! It worked I saw it , as did our Police Chief and Board Members.
The unit was opened up as well , being a HAM I know what was inside :- )
Have a GREAT DAY : -)

The exact response I expected. The scanner and attachment you described do not exist. I can't believe all these claims that people make, but can never back them up.

I'm also still laughing about having 3 hams on the board. Big deal. This is like saying there are 3 pink lady volunteers on the surgical board for a hospital.

I am an extra class ham, and I managed a large communications organization for many years and I can tell you our professional equipment was way beyond the knowledge of ham operators. When I retired, the second time, 3 years ago we had over 10,000 radios on our system. So I know a little about equipment, and what is fact and what is fiction.

 

[williams63]

The Police Board I sat on seen it..heard it.

I never built it..nor operated it.

Enuff said...live with the fact this isnt Rocket Science here...any good tech can build stuff like this...

AGAIN, I never built the thing...Only saw it decode des and dvp

Also as belivable as radio techs programing a MOT or GE Radio out the back of a shop at 6 pm on a Friday , NAHH cant be done

 

[Voyager]

After we did NOT renew our Contract...the competitor , showed us a working demo of a Store Bought Scanner that did decode our DVP.

Just the same...to see a Regular off the shelf unit , decode DVP and DES was amazing!

Yea - and impossible, too.

Which model was it that has this 'feature'? How did they install the keys?

Most likely it was a P25 scanner and you were not using DVP, but using non-encrypted P25 instead.

EDIT: Just read the part about the 'box'. Sure, you can take a Motorola DVP module correctly programmed and decode the DVP. If they were just using the scanner to receive the RF, it's not a great surprise that scanners receive RF.

Now, how did they get your key? You can't just take a DVP module and decode any DVP signal.

I've heard many times some departments THOUGHT they were encrypted, but were not. Many times this happens with P25. People thing that just because it's digital means that it's encrypted. That is absolutely not the same thing.

You know, I've 'seen' David Copperfield turn a lady into a tiger, too. Saw it with my own eyes on TV. Now, is that what really happened?

Joe M.

 

[williams63]

I had no KEY..as I stated..I was a member of a Police Services Board , it was a DEMO that was presented to us as a Board.

The year was 1992 , so no P25 stuff out yet.

 

[N_Jay]

I had no KEY..as I stated..I was a member of a Police Services Board , it was a DEMO that was presented to us as a Board.

The year was 1992 , so no P25 stuff out yet.

What was transmitting? Your radio or theirs.

Been thinking about this all evening.

EITHER they got your key and used a DVP module, like the one in a DVP Expo, or they hacked the transmitting radio to send clear text CVSD which is easy to decode.

Maybe a Tech who did not like Moto gave them a key, or gave you a radio with their key loaded in it.

 

[williams63]

Our HT's as I stated were DVP...he keyed up...did a test count...we all heard it clear as a bell , well as far as DVP goes...clear as it gets.

Ive said it before , I never made..nor own this device...

I know HOW they did it..but a Police Board is sworn to some form of silence long after our 4 yr term is up.

 

[Mozilla]

Encryption

Wow I must have missed that episode of Star Trek, where the Enterprise went back in time and visited Canada and while Spock was captured by the Canadians he managed to escape but lost his tricorder and and it was used to decrypt signals while it was attached to a radio shack scanner...
Try this out for size. DVP is a 32 bit encryption scheme, so in this little $30 dollar box, what was the computer, you know the one that would scroll thru all the possible lines of code to come up the matching key.. in what like a second ot two.. at the throw of a switch.. and since we are talking 1992 what was the speed of processors and how much did they cost.
In order to properly answer this question... was it actual DVP ... as in white noise ..hash sound stuff or was it garbled voice stuff... read Voice inversion , DVI etc.( i ASK THIS BECAUSE PEOPLE SCREW UP WHAT TYPE IT IS ALL THE TIME...)
If it was in fact DVP then the the only way it worked was they keyloaded either both the radio and or the little box. The box could be made, but it would require a DVP Hybrid and probably came out of a systems 90 or ASN head. They could have also used a flex o pac or eeven a board from a radio to a module. But without a common key, there is no way a box that you describe could decode because it has no processing capabilities... period
So either they pulled one over on you and shared the key, or what your describing as DVP is not DVP , but in fact voice inversion, in which case, both Motorola offered as DVI (for export by the way ) or an aftermarket voice inversion board made for the Expo ( 2 where availabe at that time) dID THEY ROTATE A DIAL TO FIND THE CODE???Take the time and patience to really think this one thru... it will become quite obvious.. either BS was pulled on you at the time... it happens..salemen do it all the time... or something was missed or left out in this story.

 

[Drifter]

Hrmmm, this thread has been well and truely hijacked. Could we possibly get back to the topic now?

 

[car2back]

.....I know HOW they did it..but a Police Board is sworn to some form of silence long after our 4 yr term is up.

kinda like the Masons. :lol:

 

[Archie]

A cheap and logistically easy way out for law eneforcement needing secure point to point transmissions is to simply continue using Nextels, cell phones and even those cheap family portable radios.

Supposedly Greenwich, CT Police already disconnected their encryption for unknown reasons.
What a silly waste of good money installing it in the first place. ( And let's continue wasting three cops per day as crossing guards while America's top burglars continue working in town. LOL )