Encryption

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Going right back to the WW2 "Enigma" system with rolling codes and sometimes ten phases of coding that was eventually broken but still needed a good deal of 'sleuthing' - and by mistakes made by the sender sometimes by having the encrypted message followed a bit later by the plain language text or the same message coded twice - the concept is that even though the message may eventually be read, the information contained is so far out of date as to be useless.

Oops - that's all one sentence - take a deep breath....

I believe the WW2 "Enigma" was eventually broken by the German habit of opening every message with "Heil Hitler".

Yes and I think it was followed by How is the Weather?

That is true it was cracked by known text that was encrypted. The same can be true for AES and DES. If the vocoder sends a silence word and other embedded encrypted (P25) data is repeated and known, it would be possible to rotate through all the possible key space, given enough time. That is why DES 56 is no longer secure. What is more worrisome about AES is that the NSA was "helpful" in concocting it.

 

[K7MFC]

What is more worrisome about AES is that the NSA was "helpful" in concocting it.

What, exactly, was the NSA's role in developing AES? Beyond the request for candidates..

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

What, exactly, was the NSA's role in developing AES? Beyond the request for candidates..

The RNG. Not the very first time the NSA has been helping the Cryptology industry. Career hint, if you are ever wanting to be a safecracker, get a job at Diebold.

The Strange Story of Dual_EC_DRBG - Schneier on Security

www.schneier.com

Cisco says controversial NIST crypto – potential NSA backdoor — ‘not invoked’ in products

Controversial crypto technology known as Dual EC DRBG, thought to be a backdoor for the National Security Agency, ended up in some Cisco products as part of its code libraries. But Cisco says they cannot be used because it chose another crypto as an operational default which can't be changed.

www.networkworld.com

NIST Removes Cryptography Algorithm from Random Number Generator Recommendations

Following a public comment period and review, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has removed a cryptographic algorithm from its draft

www.nist.gov

 

[CanesFan95]

alas, I can not do your research for you, 99% of the subscribers here most likely got my reference, the case was well known

Never heard of it either, but am curious if you don't mind sharing. Thanks.

 

[chrismol1]

Stark County, Ohio

A group of security whackers, also charged with police impersonation, with the assistance of someone with access to a police department and fire departments got their hands on police and fire department radios, encryption keys, programming templates, and system radio ID numbers of the statewide trunked Ohio MARCS system and copied them. Bought their own radios off ebay, programmed them on the trunked system for their own personal use with the stolen radio ID numbers and their own encryption, as well as access to scanning encrypted police talkgroups all while appearing as legitimate radios on the system. They bought more radios, programmed them the same and SOLD them for profit to their acquaintances and criminals.

After a year long investigation including statewide radio investigators and Motorola engineers as well, and with the help of the US Marshals and the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, they raided at least a dozen places, eventually confiscated HUNDREDS of illegally programmed trunked radios, guns, computers, other gear and contraband, and arrested half a dozen of the main conspirators for multiple felonies, engaging in corruption of their illegal radio criminal enterprise, police impersonation, felony theft, unauthorized illegal electronic and telecommunication access, etc

 

[chrismol1]

After working with Motorola and auditing the entire system, they're pretty sure they either confiscated or shut down and inhibited all the illegal radios. They believe these guys were selling these illegal encryption busting radios for more than a year before it was discovered what they were doing and people had in their possession. By the time they were arrested it was over 2 years they were doing this

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

After working with Motorola and auditing the entire system, they're pretty sure they either confiscated or shut down and inhibited all the illegal radios. They believe these guys were selling these illegal encryption busting radios for more than a year before it was discovered what they were doing and people had in their possession. By the time they were arrested it was over 2 years they were doing this

I am curious how they were able to get the current encryption keys for the police talk groups unless either the PD was inept (not changing keys frequently) or corrupted.

 

[oracavon]

I believe the WW2 "Enigma" was eventually broken by the German habit of opening every message with "Heil Hitler".

Nothing that simple. The Allies captured an Enigma machine and a code book (without the Germans knowing) that allowed them to discover the theory of operation, so they knew how the cypher operated. They still had to do a lot of work to determine which code rotation was being used for any given message, but they knew how the basic scheme worked, which made it possible to eventually decode the messages.

 

[chrismol1]

I am curious how they were able to get the current encryption keys for the police talk groups unless either the PD was inept (not changing keys frequently) or corrupted.

From what I've heard, it was ADP 10 digits, and the keys were obtained from the source that had access to police dept and fire/ems resources. Someone within the Canton, Ohio PD. Not all the PD nor EMS/FIRE talkgroups in Stark County were encrypted but some had channels encrypted. At least one of the guys arrested was a retired cop with contacts in the area. He was the retired cop who owned one of the security company some of the whackers worked for, who was also arrested in the raids

 

[WX4JCW]

From what I've heard, it was ADP 10 digits, and the keys were obtained from the source that had access to police dept and fire/ems resources. Someone within the Canton, Ohio PD. Not all the PD nor EMS/FIRE talkgroups in Stark County were encrypted but some had channels encrypted. At least one of the guys arrested was a retired cop with contacts in the area. He was the retired cop who owned one of the security company some of the whackers worked for, who was also arrested in the raids

Inside job

 

[CanesFan95]

Totally obscenely egregious with that Ohio incident. Why in the hell would anyone be that damn stupid?

 

[garys]

Then the Germans added a fourth rotor once they realized that the British had broken the code. At least the Kriegsmarine did.

Nothing that simple. The Allies captured an Enigma machine and a code book (without the Germans knowing) that allowed them to discover the theory of operation, so they knew how the cypher operated. They still had to do a lot of work to determine which code rotation was being used for any given message, but they knew how the basic scheme worked, which made it possible to eventually decode the messages.

 

[chrismol1]

If anyone is interested here is some of the case, as you can tell where the impersonation charges came into play. These guys were only the first few main players. There were more arrests and raids after this. Like I said, these guys were doing this for 2+ years before they were caught, it was a little bit of a mess to clean up

https://das.ohio.gov/Portals/0/DASDivisions/InformationTechnology/IS/MARCS/Steering%20Committee/Stark%20Presentation%20Beginning%20to%20End.pdf

 

[WX4JCW]

Totally obscenely egregious with that Ohio incident. Why in the hell would anyone be that damn stupid?

well do you have 12 hours to dissect it

 

[oracavon]

Then the Germans added a fourth rotor once they realized that the British had broken the code. At least the Kriegsmarine did.

Actually, they never did discover that the code had been broken until after the Allies revealed it several years after the war was over. The fourth rotor was a planned enhancement, not a response to Allied codebreaking efforts.

 

[WPXS472]

Regarding AES256, I while back I read that with quantum computing power now available, no encryption system would be safe. Concerned about this, I spent several hours sleuthing the current state of encryption systems, particularly AES256. From what I read, AES128 is actually more secure than 256. The reason being something to do with the way keys are handled. That said, the consensus of folks in the know seems to be that AES isn't an algorithm that lends itself to being easily broken by quantum computers. They seemed to think that AES256 was safe for at least the next several years. If anyone figures out how to do that, it will be the NSA. They have a super secret, super powerful computer in Oakridge that could do it if it can be done. And, of course, the NSA isn't going to go around bragging about it if they do manage to break it.

 

[RayAir]

Are agencies with encryption broadcasts still unable to be monitored by any scanner devices?

Unfortunately no, but a FEW agencies broadcast a delayed feed of their dispatch channel online. I believe Akron PD online feed has 30 minute delay.
More agencies should provide an online delayed feed of their dispatch if they're encrypted to provide transparency.

 

[K7MFC]

lol I love all the armchair cryptographers on RadioReference..

 

[RayAir]

Encrypted transmissions cannot be monitored by any scanner PERIOD!

Some scanners can receive encryption. My old pro-668 receives encryption just fine. It just can't decrypt it, PERIOD.

Regarding AES256, I while back I read that with quantum computing power now available, no encryption system would be safe. Concerned about this, I spent several hours sleuthing the current state of encryption systems, particularly AES256. From what I read, AES128 is actually more secure than 256. The reason being something to do with the way keys are handled. That said, the consensus of folks in the know seems to be that AES isn't an algorithm that lends itself to being easily broken by quantum computers. They seemed to think that AES256 was safe for at least the next several years. If anyone figures out how to do that, it will be the NSA. They have a super secret, super powerful computer in Oakridge that could do it if it can be done. And, of course, the NSA isn't going to go around bragging about it if they do manage to break it.

You know if quantum computing does exist or when it becomes available then AES-128 will be reduced to 2^64 possible keys. That's about 18 quintillion. And that is not secure.

Asymmetrical encryption like RSA will be rendered useless.

 

[K7MFC]

For the purposes of this forum, who cares if any given encryption algorithm can be broken? There will never be a scanner on the market that will decrypt encrypted comms.