FBI Moving to Mostly VoIP Wireless

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

On top of that, a lot of sites use fiber for the backhaul. Another major failure point. Even if the site has generator backup, the CIC cabinets the phone company use run on battery, so even a prolonged simple power outage can render the site useless. Never mind the risk of fiber damage or anything else.

Here in Florida, my neighborhood cable provider (no fiber) relies on battery back up for the cable amps. There is barely 4 hours of battery, These batteries get punished whenever there is a power outage (frequently). I think this is the future of cable and fiber. The battery capacity will never be like the old days when a CO had a couple days of 48VDC and massive generator capacity to run indefinitely. The failures will be the mid points, fiber repeaters, multiplexers etc in the field.

 

[12dbsinad]

Here in Florida, my neighborhood cable provider (no fiber) relies on battery back up for the cable amps. There is barely 4 hours of battery, These batteries get punished whenever there is a power outage (frequently). I think this is the future of cable and fiber. The battery capacity will never be like the old days when a CO had a couple days of 48VDC and massive generator capacity to run indefinitely. The failures will be the mid points, fiber repeaters, multiplexers etc in the field.

It's the EXACT same way with our cable (including internet) as far as those amps you speak of. It used to be I could get 8 or so hours of "cable" during an outage. Now, we barely get 3 hours. I concluded that it is probably a combination of aged batteries and the extreme cold up here in the north. Which doesn't help batteries... I live in a fairly remote area with no additional demand on cable as I experienced this.

I agree with you 100% that this is the future of fiber an cable. Mid point failures.

 

[Hooligan]

FBI Connects with Persistent for Wireless Network Solution

MPU5 - Persistent Systems : Wave Relay, Mobile Ad-Hoc Networking Solution MANET, Wireless Secure Scalable Communication

 

[iamhere300]

Not around here. First Net was told to take a hike. They proposed one site for a county that currently has 9. When pressed , they admitted there will never be enough funding to cover the entire county with PTT.

Could First Net work in a area that has ample coverage such as a city...sure, maybe. In rural USA, nope.

LOL. First off, a single county can not tell First Net to take a hike. Secondly, they are not pushing it for PTT. Only the state can tell Firstnet to "take a hike" and they have to have an alternative. No one has said such yet, the deadline is not here yet, and most states are asking for more information

 

[NavyBOFH]

You missed the entire bid proposal and network design of FirstNet then...
It was bid out to existing commercial carriers like AT&T who won it BECAUSE they already own the infrastructure and property to build such a system. Then, the FCC will allocate the requisite licenses for spectrum to create the network as needed by AT&T's proposal. And the $10.4 billion (whatever it ended up really being), is for them to perform the work, install the equipment, and maintain a network and support staff for it.

So you can't tell FirstNet, a federal oversight entity, to "take a hike" unless you're telling AT&T to pack it up and close down ALL their cellular and relay towers in the area as well...

As for their infrastructure... I can tell you that cellular is reliant on batteries for some backup - but most of their sites also have a VERY oversized generator for their intended use... I am talking like a 25kW Kohler generator for maybe 30 amps of DC current draw off their rectifiers... and most of the sites I have seen are either plumbed into natural gas or have HUGE propane tanks... with run times of 10-12 days conservatively. That means there has to be literally an "end of the world" type situation for a network failure to happen.

As for the FBI's intended network... I can tell you based on their current sites that their site will likely be similar in setup with HUGE battery UPS and generator systems as well. Public safety comms isn't a PSTN network with batteries that only last a few hours. There's a huge difference between Comast/AT&T residential/etc and public safety comms that are specified for that 99.999% uptime and guaranteed redundancy. Cable and "regular" phone doesn't care if your phone or internet goes out after a couple hours of a power outage - as long as 911 still works and utilities can collaborate to restore services.

 

[R8000]

LOL. First off, a single county can not tell First Net to take a hike. Secondly, they are not pushing it for PTT. Only the state can tell Firstnet to "take a hike" and they have to have an alternative. No one has said such yet, the deadline is not here yet, and most states are asking for more information

80% of the counties in our state have indicated at this time that they are not interested in FirstNET. Our state is not decided if they will opt in or not.

The feedback and grumbling between counties is not good. The support for FirstNET is not happening at this time

Could it change ? Sure. But FirstNET needs to prove itself and get some good references.

As for now, yes, we told them to take a hike.

 

[iamhere300]

80% of the counties in our state have indicated at this time that they are not interested in FirstNET. Our state is not decided if they will opt in or not.

The feedback and grumbling between counties is not good. The support for FirstNET is not happening at this time

Could it change ? Sure. But FirstNET needs to prove itself and get some good references.

As for now, yes, we told them to take a hike.

Brad Schimel has stated that Wisconsin will be going with Firstnet. They have not signed the paperwork, but there it is.

If your agency, or 80% of the agencies in the state decline to use the system offered by AT&T, that is fine, but the state is still going to opt in.

There is no "do nothing option" or no "do nothing for now but down the road after we have references option". If the state does nothing, then Firstnet will be built for them. If the state opts out, then they have to pick another vendor to provide a compatible system, and will be given SOME funding to make it happen. It will have to be fully compatible with the AT&T Firstnet product, offer similar coverage, etc.

There is a specific time frame to opt in or opt out, and if you opt out, you have to provide your plan when you do. You can't decide to do it a year from now, or 12 years from now.

Even if WI opts out, there will be a Firstnet or Firstnet like system built in the state.

No one has told Firstnet to take a hike, at least no one that matters. The only ones that matter to Firstnet at this point is each individual state governor.

 

[SCPD]

New Mexico has already invested in FirstNet. The state end is working on it now.

 

[iamhere300]

You missed the entire bid proposal and network design of FirstNet then...
It was bid out to existing commercial carriers like AT&T who won it BECAUSE they already own the infrastructure and property to build such a system. Then, the FCC will allocate the requisite licenses for spectrum to create the network as needed by AT&T's proposal. And the $10.4 billion (whatever it ended up really being), is for them to perform the work, install the equipment, and maintain a network and support staff for it.

No, in fact 2 out of 3 of the respondents to the bid request were not carriers. PDV wireless maintains a PTT system that has some coverage, but not anywhere near what Firstnet will cover. Rivada Mercury has no towers. No coverage. They were founded to bid on Firstnet. Rivada's bid was actually quite a bit better financially then AT&T's. PDV it was felt just did not have the capability.

The money involved goes TO AT&T, not AT&T paying Firstnet. The value for AT&T is not the 6.5 billion in performance based payments they will get from Firstnet, rather the spectrum that AT&T will receive that can be used for commercial services. They are forecast to spend 40 billion on the system over and above the 6.5 billion. They WILL BE CHARGING public safety users, cell phone or higher rates for service.

So you can't tell FirstNet, a federal oversight entity, to "take a hike" unless you're telling AT&T to pack it up and close down ALL their cellular and relay towers in the area as well...

You can opt out, within the appropiate guidelines. Firstnet opt in or out has nothing to do with their existing or future Cellular or PCS offerings in the state.

As for their infrastructure... I can tell you that cellular is reliant on batteries for some backup - but most of their sites also have a VERY oversized generator for their intended use... I am talking like a 25kW Kohler generator for maybe 30 amps of DC current draw off their rectifiers... and most of the sites I have seen are either plumbed into natural gas or have HUGE propane tanks... with run times of 10-12 days conservatively. That means there has to be literally an "end of the world" type situation for a network failure to happen.

250 to 500 lb is not a huge tank, nor will it get you that run time.

As for the FBI's intended network... I can tell you based on their current sites that their site will likely be similar in setup with HUGE battery UPS and generator systems as well. Public safety comms isn't a PSTN network with batteries that only last a few hours. There's a huge difference between Comast/AT&T residential/etc and public safety comms that are specified for that 99.999% uptime and guaranteed redundancy. Cable and "regular" phone doesn't care if your phone or internet goes out after a couple hours of a power outage - as long as 911 still works and utilities can collaborate to restore services.

Snicker. FBI leases space from me on a couple of towers. A couple of batteries on the repeater, and no battery backup on the data jacks. Thats it.

 

[iamhere300]

7 states have actually signed the paperwork opting in. NJ, AR, KY, WV, VA, WY and IA. So far.


No states, that is ZERO states, as in a big old goose egg, have opted out so far.

 

[NavyBOFH]

Yes, zero states have opted out. And those that end up opting out are being told that they must have an agreement in place to have a similar network being brought in (for example, Verizon is trying to build up public safety network as well). We are also understanding that AT&T will be spending a good amount of cash to make this possible and that the spectrum itself was the incentive for this contract. But don't be mistaken - their infrastructure WILL make a difference. If they have the towers and resources already, they'll use them as much as possible. Same will go with whichever other provider tries to throw their hat in the ring. As for pricing I can say that if it's on-par with cellular... so what? Here in SC most departments are paying for Verizon or AT&T hotspots for every vehicle to have MDT access. Most have cellphones for their units as well. And our state trunked system? You end up paying around $60 a month PER USER for a statewide talkgroup access and ID. So cellular pricing can't be that bad in that case.

As for the FBI, maybe they're cutting corners where you are - but here they don't mess around. Every site has generators and UPS. Their repeaters are linked into a public safety microwave backhaul. As for propane tank capacity... I run 25kW generators off 500 or 1000lb tanks. The sites hold on average 2-3 microwave relays and around 3-4 standalone repeaters and usually at least one trunked system. Last year we were on generator for almost two weeks and I only had the tanks filled once during that time. Once the commercial power came back I still had 70% of my fill-up left. That is about average for my "small sites". My large sites are on CAT 250kW diesel generators with 500gal tanks and they only go 3-4 days. They're loaded to about 35-40% capacity and power a TV and FM transmitter, microwave relay, and usually a couple repeaters or trunked systems as well.

The cellular customers leasing from us get their own generators and UPS (and usually their own shelters as well) but seem to have comparable run-time at least. Point being - public safety grade systems are designed not to fail in these events and have contracts in place to make sure that something like a fuel delivery doesn't stop the works.


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[iamhere300]

Yes, zero states have opted out. And those that end up opting out are being told that they must have an agreement in place to have a similar network being brought in (for example, Verizon is trying to build up public safety network as well). We are also understanding that AT&T will be spending a good amount of cash to make this possible and that the spectrum itself was the incentive for this contract. But don't be mistaken - their infrastructure WILL make a difference. If they have the towers and resources already, they'll use them as much as possible. Same will go with whichever other provider tries to throw their hat in the ring. As for pricing I can say that if it's on-par with cellular... so what? Here in SC most departments are paying for Verizon or AT&T hotspots for every vehicle to have MDT access. Most have cellphones for their units as well. And our state trunked system? You end up paying around $60 a month PER USER for a statewide talkgroup access and ID. So cellular pricing can't be that bad in that case.

Well good to see you got better information since your last post. No one says that their infrastructure will not save them some money. But any lease tower they are on will require new leases, any area they are not in will require new sites, all sites will require some new equipment.

Your state trunking system is not comparable - apples to oranges. Firstnet is a broadband data system.

As for the FBI, maybe they're cutting corners where you are - but here they don't mess around. Every site has generators and UPS. Their repeaters are linked into a public safety microwave backhaul. As for propane tank capacity... I run 25kW generators off 500 or 1000lb tanks. The sites hold on average 2-3 microwave relays and around 3-4 standalone repeaters and usually at least one trunked system. Last year we were on generator for almost two weeks and I only had the tanks filled once during that time. Once the commercial power came back I still had 70% of my fill-up left. That is about average for my "small sites". My large sites are on CAT 250kW diesel generators with 500gal tanks and they only go 3-4 days. They're loaded to about 35-40% capacity and power a TV and FM transmitter, microwave relay, and usually a couple repeaters or trunked systems as well.

The cellular customers leasing from us get their own generators and UPS (and usually their own shelters as well) but seem to have comparable run-time at least. Point being - public safety grade systems are designed not to fail in these events and have contracts in place to make sure that something like a fuel delivery doesn't stop the works.


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So you provide that. You would have that there regardless. The FBI does not NORMALLY require it. Now, what do I know. I have only owned about 300 lease tower sites, with multiple customers as well as ran a Motorola MSS. What do I know?

 

[jbella]

In looking at the big picture it makes sense.

What does the "I" stand for in FBI?

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of Agents are out on Investigations. In general they really wouldn't be using LMR anyway.

Yes, yes, yes, groups of them do surveillance, there is the Hostage Rescue Team, and all sorts of other high profile types who need good ol fashioned radios. I would venture a guess this doesn't pertain to them. You won't be hearing what you weren't hearing to begin with.

 

[sefrischling]

I haven't seen cell infrastructure go down since Voicestream in the 1990's.

Both 9/11/01 and 08/14/03 quickly come to mind for the Northeast in regard to wide spread regional mobile phone infrastructure failures.

 

[ka8zay]

Both 9/11/01 and 08/14/03 quickly come to mind for the Northeast in regard to wide spread regional mobile phone infrastructure failures.

Technically you're wrong, the cell network did not go down the ability to place calls to other numbers was overloaded by the sheer number of people using it attempting to make calls at the same time. However the network was still up and those with prioritized usage such as first responders would've still been able to get on and connect.


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[sefrischling]

Technically you're wrong, the cell network did not go down the ability to place calls to other numbers was overloaded by the sheer number of people using it attempting to make calls at the same time. However the network was still up and those with prioritized usage such as first responders would've still been able to get on and connect.

The systems were overloaded on 9/11 and they could not prioritize calls. During the black out the system failed, there was no overload. Many cell sites were just down.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

In looking at the big picture it makes sense.

What does the "I" stand for in FBI?

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of Agents are out on Investigations. In general they really wouldn't be using LMR anyway.

Yes, yes, yes, groups of them do surveillance, there is the Hostage Rescue Team, and all sorts of other high profile types who need good ol fashioned radios. I would venture a guess this doesn't pertain to them. You won't be hearing what you weren't hearing to begin with.

When they are out investigating, they are potentially dealing with violent bank robbers and such.

A few years back, my sister had a knock on her door and there was an FBI agent at the front door and another at the rear patio window on the deck. Her license tag came back as a partial on a bank robbery near by. She showed them evidence she was somewhere else that day.

Same model and color, with similar tag.

I would suspect in these cases they would hope they had radio communications for back up because they were expecting to find the robber.

A co worker used to be an IRS investigator. He told me that he went to one guys house and the guy had a huge snake in cage with a white rat in another nearby cage with a tag marked "IRS agent" around its neck. Other times, the "customers" were clearly armed in their homes or offices and were trying to intimidate him.

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[ecps92]

Let us not forget April 15, 2013
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing

Both 9/11/01 and 08/14/03 quickly come to mind for the Northeast in regard to wide spread regional mobile phone infrastructure failures.

 

[iamhere300]

Michigan, Maine and Montana "Opt In" to Firstnet.

 

[TampaTyron]

Boston wasn't a failure in the traditional sense, the feds disabled/reduced the use of cellular voice and data to minimize the terrorists ability to communicate. GETS was a no go over cell obviously and WPS was very spotty, mostly worked well through Verizon. All the other carriers were struggling even with WPS. TT