FHP Encryption and the future?

[kikito]

kikito- you DO bring up a messy point. What constitues "encryption". As I made a point earlier, in "olden days", and perhaps to some extent today, agencies commonly use "code words" etc to help protect their conversations... and at some level, that is a form of "encryption".

Just one of life's little cans of worms!

Well, for one, scrambling and encryption are not exactly the same thing. Sometimes they both achieve the same thing but they're not quite the same. That in itself is definintely a "can of worms".

In the case of the simple ESK scheme on the control channel of "X-ORing" some numbers, I would consider that's publicly available knowledge and means to "extract" the end product. If anyone, starting with M/A-Com, thinks that's a form of encryption and safe enough from "prying ears", then I also have a bridge to sell them or perhaps a ProVoice radio to hook up to the ESK capable Trunker software!

Of course, in the eyes of the laws, doesn't matter how simple a techinque of scrambling or encryption might be, it might still be illegal to decode or decipher and in the end, the manufacturer can give their customer a false sense of security.

In the end, ONLY the true encryption they (FHP) might be using, is the only safeguarding of their communications.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, this is only my opinion and I might be wrong.

 

[dgoodson]

I agree whole heartedly... I was only stirring up the "moral" issue. If its illegal to listen to encrypted comms, and the INTENT of that law is to provide some legal protection to radio users who choose to gain some privacy of their communications, then why wouldn't any user that takes steps to intentionally "secure" their comm (regardless of the means) for privacy be entitled to the same protection under law. Why just pure encryption?

Lucky for us all that this is apparently not the conventional wisdom! Seems like if someone with deep financial resources wanted to take on the legal question, it could lead to lively debate that really means something rather than us just chewing on it.

Of course, one can micro-analyze any wording and pick it apart which is what I am doing.

 

[kikito]

Of course, one can micro-analyze any wording and pick it apart which is what I am doing.

Shhhhh! Don't say that too loud. We don't need to give any more ideas to lawyers! :lol:

 

[grem467]

ESK aside, all talkgroups on SLERS use full time DES, which we all will agree IS encryption

 

[kikito]

ESK aside, all talkgroups on SLERS use full time DES, which we all will agree IS encryption

Yes we agree and like I said above, true encryption of the voice channels is the only factor keeping their communications "secure".

 

[n4dog]

It seems that someone forgot about the thread about what happened in Michigan about the person(s) being convicted for
hacking into their digital system and it wasn't encrypted.
I tell you what, I ' ll bring you some cigarettes on visiting day
at Leavenworth.LOL

LOL Cigarettes are no outlawed in all of our Federal Prison. So you could not bring those to him. LOL

 

[ElroyJetson]

Even plain old DES encryption uses a 56-bit key. Ever done the math to see how many possible keys there are with that?

Using supercomputers, it sitll would take weeks to try all possible codes to find the one in use. If your system changed codes just once a week, your odds of being intercepted by that supercomputer catching you with the proper code would be very low. And thanks to OTAR rekeying, there's no reason why the system can't re-key itself several times a day,
making the probability of intercept almost zero.

 

[kikito]

Even plain old DES encryption uses a 56-bit key. Ever done the math to see how many possible keys there are with that?

Using supercomputers, it sitll would take weeks to try all possible codes to find the one in use. If your system changed codes just once a week, your odds of being intercepted by that supercomputer catching you with the proper code would be very low. And thanks to OTAR rekeying, there's no reason why the system can't re-key itself several times a day,
making the probability of intercept almost zero.

Who's arguing anything about encryption? You should quote who you're responding to because your reply seems a little out of place as to what or who you're replying to.

Anyway, how practical and trouble free would be to use OTAR several times a day on systems that have THOUSANDS of radios?

 

[ranger18]

Wow this really is sad.

 

[kikito]

Wow this really is sad.

Hard to say if it is, without knowing what you're referring to.....

 

[SCPD]

DES has been declassifed long ago. Everyone knows DES is breakable, which is why the NSA, NCS, & DIA banned its use on govt installations & replaced it with AES & other classifed encrpytion methods.

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto/Crypto_misc/DESCracker/HTML/19980716_eff_descracker_pressrel.html

Now adays its not $250K anymore, its more moreless around $10,000 to get the same outcome.

So whats the bottom line? The only people the govt has succussfully stopped from listening is the hobbist, because a true terrorist, drug dealer, mob, etc. They can still listen if they wish... With money, anything is possible. The hobbist suffer as the black market goes on unharmed. So you must say to yourself, what is the Government protecting themselves from ?

 

[Mozilla]

DES has been declassifed long ago. Everyone knows DES is breakable, which is why the NSA, NCS, & DIA banned its use on govt installations & replaced it with AES & other classifed encrpytion methods.
So whats the bottom line? The only people the govt has succussfully stopped from listening is the hobbist, because a true terrorist, drug dealer, mob, etc. They can still listen if they wish... With money, anything is possible. The hobbist suffer as the black market goes on unharmed. So you must say to yourself, what is the Government protecting themselves from ?

First off, DES was used for unclassified material. If you looked at any certed radio from the period, they had a sticker, stating exactly what was supposed to be transmitted on it. Security details, basic information and and other information of non-classified nature was acceptable and could be transmitted.
Secondly to clarify regular AES is a type 3 encryption, with Type 1 encryptions being the highest. There is a version of AES known as " high assurance AES " that qualifies as Type 1.
And finally the last statement is incorrect. It has stopped some individuals from listening, or being able to pick up details, and even on the larger scale methods, it has it benefits.
There are a number of variables, that have to factored in, including capturing quality signal, delay of decoding, etc, that can be of benefit. As someone who plays with some of the bigger boys and toys for the last 23 years in several areas, it does work, and it is reliable, and when used properly will prevent listening or decoding. Some one with experience in the field will know there are other methods that may prove to be more valuable at times than trying to listen. In 2 of the biggest cases I can remeber, it wasn't the encryption that gaves us up, but rather, an orginization having someone on the inside who provide information. Even more interestingly was the fact that twice in the last six monthes when I have run into scanners used by bad guys, they had been stolen in break-ins, so they already where programmed and running on local systems.
I have also found that using Klingon combined with encryption throws off most users... ;]

 

[SCPD]

In June 2003, the US Government announced that AES may be used for classified information:

"The design and strength of all key lengths of the AES algorithm (i.e., 128, 192 and 256) are sufficient to protect classified information up to the SECRET level. TOP SECRET information will require use of either the 192 or 256 key lengths. The implementation of AES in products intended to protect national security systems and/or information must be reviewed and certified by NSA prior to their acquisition and use."

"Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) - a Belgian-designed encryption algorithm, selected by NIST after a public competition. In 2003, NSA certified AES for Type 1 use in some NSA-approved systems."