Fight Against Encryption

[Bolt21]

Citizens should have the ability to be aware of imminent danger in their community.

Here are some ideas I've come up with on how to fight the encryption trend in our state.

1) Continue to uphold the statute requiring amateur radio license for scanners in vehicles. Educate LEOs of its existence. Include literature detailing scanner laws and penalties with every new scanner.
2) Develop harsher penalties for the use of a scanner in the commission of a crime.
3) Develop a statute making it illegal to rebroadcast/stream LE traffic on the internet or any other means.
4) Develop a statute making it illegal for a law enforcement agency to encrypt dispatch and car-to-car frequencies/talkgroups utilized for active calls. Encryption for special investigations, narcotics investigations, SWAT, etc. would be permitted and necessary.

Somehow we need to get these ideas presented to legislative representatives and for those ideas to be taken seriously. Any serious suggestions on how to do this? I know there is at least one member here that has connections - the member that helped write the current FL statute pertaining to scanners/radios in vehicles.

Any other serious ideas in addition to the four proposed here?

 

[n4yek]

Citizens should have the ability to be aware of imminent danger in their community.

Law Enforcement officers have the right to protect themselves also, they are serving the public and protecting your life and property at their risk of personal life.

 

[jcardani]

Law enforcement serves the people, and the people must be kept informed. This is a great idea but good luck getting the attention of an elected official on this. You would need to contact a state representative so it would be a statewide law.

Check some of my prior posts in the LCSO Dead Air thread, but another alternative is to provide a real-time web based crime notification online CAD that has enough detail and is updated with status reports and a final disposition.

 

[Bolt21]

In reference to post #2, I did not ask for a debate on encryption. I want the people of Florida to suggest ways to put a stop to active call encryption.

Please, no more debating encryption. That horse died here a long time ago.

 

[elk2370bruce]

Citizens should have the ability to be aware of imminent danger in their community.

Here are some ideas I've come up with on how to fight the encryption trend in our state.

1) Continue to uphold the statute requiring amateur radio license for scanners in vehicles. Educate LEOs of its existence. Include literature detailing scanner laws and penalties with every new scanner.
2) Develop harsher penalties for the use of a scanner in the commission of a crime.
3) Develop a statute making it illegal to rebroadcast/stream LE traffic on the internet or any other means.
4) Develop a statute making it illegal for a law enforcement agency to encrypt dispatch and car-to-car frequencies/talkgroups utilized for active calls. Encryption for special investigations, narcotics investigations, SWAT, etc. would be permitted and necessary.

Somehow we need to get these ideas presented to legislative representatives and for those ideas to be taken seriously. Any serious suggestions on how to do this? I know there is at least one member here that has connections - the member that helped write the current FL statute pertaining to scanners/radios in vehicles.

Any other serious ideas in addition to the four proposed here?

Good luck tilting at that windmill. Its been tried before and, each time, unsuccessfully. Any attempt of this nature will cost a bundle in lawyer and court costs and you known damn full well that a wall of lawyers will be lined up against any of these futile efforts. Reality check anyone? Further, what national scanning lobby group exists to begin to bring pressure on governmental entities to block encryption? Without muscle, we will continue to lose ground to responder paranoia.

 

[Bolt21]

Further, what national scanning lobby group exists to begin to bring pressure on governmental entities to block encryption?

I'm not asking for a national movement. It has to start locally, at a state level. Provide an example of this "being tried before." Attempting to stop encryption is better than sitting back and doing nothing. If there is not a "scanning lobby" group, maybe it's time for one.

Take notice that this is posted in the FLORIDA forum.

 

[Bolt21]

Again, I want to remind everyone that there is a member here on this site that helped write the current statute. I cannot remember who it is, but hopefully he will weigh in on the issue.

 

[N4ADE]

Citizens should have the ability to be aware of imminent danger in their
3) Develop a statute making it illegal to rebroadcast/stream LE traffic on the internet or any other means.


Any other serious ideas in addition to the four proposed here?

3 might be a problem that is too broad of a statement. i know the media and news outlets wouldn't be happy about that.
plus that would eliminate the streaming of those that are done on this site. so 3 is probably a no go or needs to be rethought.

 

[Bolt21]

Bottom line is that #3 contributes to encryption, regardless of the views of this website. It is also proposed to help LE agencies become more comfortable with unencrypting active call channels.

 

[mdulrich]

Bottom line is that #3 contributes to encryption, regardless of the views of this website. It is also proposed to help LE agencies become more comfortable with unencrypting active call channels.

Let me get this straight, you want to outlaw dispatch encryption so that citizens can be informed about dangerous situations, but then limit the ability for citizens to listen in and be aware of dangerous situations?

Mike

 

[Bolt21]

Yep. Like I've said in the past, if you want to listen in, purchase a scanner and have at it. LE streams are a big part of the reason that LE agencies want to encrypt. Streaming LE transmissions for criminals who are too stupid to program a scanner is a problem. Using an app on a smartphone that taps a stream is a problem.

OK, if everyone DOESN'T want to fight encryption, start another thread in your own state forum and talk about how great encryption is and why we shouldn't fight it. If you want to suggest a positive idea to this thread pertaining to how we can combat encryption, then please do so.

This is not a "Why we should lay down and not fight encryption" thread. Hopefully some Florida residents will start posting.

 

[jcardani]

I would like to know what your thoughts are on the web based real-time online CAD idea.

And BTW, I am a Florida homeowner (Polk County).

 

[Bolt21]

First off, it's not and will likely never be "real-time." Also, a CAD post does me no good if I'm traveling with my family and LE is involved in a pursuit that's about to come crashing through the intersection that I am approaching. And if I'm home, I'd have to spend all my time staring at my computer. That CAD post won't tell me where a suspect is fleeing to and where the SO pilot thinks he's headed to next.

I know you're a local, Joe and value your input.

 

[TrenchFeeder]

I think the real answer is to prove that scanner listeners can be responsible and valuble people for law enforcement to have around

 

[Bolt21]

That's an idea that I wholeheartedly agree with. Trouble is, law enforcement likes laws, not ideas.

 

[Thayne]

Yep. Like I've said in the past, if you want to listen in, purchase a scanner and have at it. LE streams are a big part of the reason that LE agencies want to encrypt. Streaming LE transmissions for criminals who are too stupid to program a scanner is a problem. Using an app on a smartphone that taps a stream is a problem.

OK, if everyone DOESN'T want to fight encryption, start another thread in your own state forum and talk about how great encryption is and why we shouldn't fight it. If you want to suggest a positive idea to this thread pertaining to how we can combat encryption, then please do so.

This is not a "Why we should lay down and not fight encryption" thread. Hopefully some Florida residents will start posting.

I have been thinking & saying what the first paragraph says for years, it is obviously true, but for some unexplainable reasons, most here love the streaming. Unless technology comes to the rescue as it usually does, this website will cease to exist because there will be nothing to monitor.
If the government can keep happy meals out of California, they can sure as hell do mandatory encryption

 

[dugan]

From the point of view of the agencies involved it is very tempting to encrypt, especially because of streaming technology making it easy for large numbers of morons to listen in. A good first step in reducing the temptation to go encrypted would be to voluntarily stop streaming on this site. Whether it would make any difference at this point is questionable. The next step would be to discourage the streaming of scanner feeds by anyone.

I remember that in the 1980's a town in Southern Ontario had a problem with the local youth using scanners to track the location of the local police. The kids were organized and were using their own radios to relay information to each other. It was a big problem for police, because the youths were taking full advantage of the information they got from the scanners. They were even deliberately attracting the police to one side of town while they had something on the go on the other side of town. Of course this example does not relate to the current issue other than illustrating the problems that can occur when information is used in the wrong way.

 

[SQUAD109]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

I agree 100% bolt now let's see some Florida feed providers take down there feeds it wnt solve encrytion over night but it's a start

 

[jcardani]

Hi Bolt,

Thanks!

I really can't do any of the legwork since I am only a vacation home owner and not a Florida resident. But you can start by contacting a state rep and asking to meet with him/her to discuss the details. Not sure what party may be best to work with but republican views of less government and less spending may be a place to start.

Yes the CAD idea won't be perfect but if designed correctly it would be better than nothing. The application can be programmed to page you if an incident is within a certain radius of your current location. Also the application could be accessed by a web browser at home or a mobile device. The CAD information must be of sufficent detail and provide status updates with a concluding disposition.

Please keep me posted on your work. I was thinking of doing the same in NJ a few years back but it seems that encryption is not spreading here as fast as it is in Florida.

First off, it's not and will likely never be "real-time." Also, a CAD post does me no good if I'm traveling with my family and LE is involved in a pursuit that's about to come crashing through the intersection that I am approaching. And if I'm home, I'd have to spend all my time staring at my computer. That CAD post won't tell me where a suspect is fleeing to and where the SO pilot thinks he's headed to next.

I know you're a local, Joe and value your input.

 

[jcardani]

About the feeds. Meet with the Sheriff or Police Chief and/or representative to see if they are concerned about the scanner feeds of their radio systems. Some may be very concerned and others may not.

My feeling is this. It's the *perception* of the feed that's causing the LE community to be concerned. In reality, most feeds scan so many talkgroups/channels it would be virtually impossible for a criminal to follow the broadcasts. But again, the LE official sees that their radio system is being feed over the internet and they panic.