Frequencies available for Ham simplex - Digital and Analog

[zz0468]

No one can tell you not to transmit on a specific frequency--they can however tell you that you can't use their equipment (meaning a repeater or echolink node needs a tone if they want to make it private as no one owns the rights to a frequency). You may not interfere with other users--basically don't talk while someone is using a frequency. All frequencies are used on a sharing basis--even repeater frequencies. You may transmit simplex on a repeater input frequency without using a tone and the repeater users are required to share the frequency with you.

Your entire post is wrong on more levels than I care to count.

While your license allows you to transmit anywhere within the ham bands you're licensed to, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't carry some consequences.

Your advise that you can transmit on a repeater input frequency without a plan tone does not mean you won't cause interference.

Read 97.101:

General standards.
(a) In all respects not specifically covered by FCC Rules each amateur station must be operated in accordance with good engineering and good amateur practice.

(b) Each station licensee and each control operator must cooperate in selecting transmitting channels and in making the most effective use of the amateur service frequencies. No frequency will be assigned for the exclusive use of any station.

(c) At all times and on all frequencies, each control operator must give priority to stations providing emergency communications, except to stations transmitting communications for training drills and tests in RACES.

(d) No amateur operator shall willfully or maliciously interfere with or cause interference to any radio communication or signal.

***

Good amateur practice includes following local band plans and local practice. If you were to transmit on a repeater input, and an interference case filed against you, 97.101 would be the applicable rule used against you.

I can install a repeater on 145.0 without coordination and no one can do a thing about it.

That's not entirely true. If you cause interference to a coordinated repeater, the FCC will place the burden of responsibility upon you.

Are you even aware of the space communications sub bands where terrestrial simplex transmissions will likely earn you a citation? There's even a piece of the 2 meter band that you can't use for just any old thing.

The US military is the primary user on the 420-450 band, and sometimes prohibits the use of all or part of the band. Same thing for the 1200 band. They may take a slice out of it for some specific purpose, and if you don't participate in the local band plan, the knock on your door might be the FCC accompanied by the US Air Force.

I am even aware of specific cases where they asked for a specific repeater to be turned off temporarily because the input or output frequency was needed for something.

At best, your advice is ignorant, and if it gets passed on to New comers to the hobby would lead to more problems than we already have. At worst, your advice is maliciously dangerous and could cause a new operator following it to wind up transmitting on frequencies that are specifically denied.

Advice such as yours needs to be completely ignored.

The better advice is to find out what local practice and bandplan call for.

 

[I_am_Alpha1]

Members of the jury, I rest my case. They just can't help themselves. They have to be in control and get off on telling others what they can and can't do. Call them on their BS and you see what happens. Attacks and false interpretations all in an effort to make themselves feel important vs impotent. They should have actually read the FCC stuff they posted...seriously, they backed my post while attacking it. This IS the problem with amateur radio and why it's dying off. You'll find lots of forum posts and even youtube videos covering this topic. Even the mods here are getting fed up with off topic attacks to OP questions. This is also why you don't get help here like you used to--why should someone give up their time to help just to be insulted for it.

Mods, please lock this thread.

 

[zz0468]

Members of the jury, I rest my case. They just can't help themselves. They have to be in control and get off on telling others what they can and can't do.

It's not a matter of control, it's more about trying to pass along good operating practice to new hams.

For example, suggesting that one can operate simplex on a repeater input is simply bad advice. Repeater users are not obligated to monitor the repeater input frequency, as it's understood to be good engineering and good amateur practice to only use repeater input frequencies to communicate through the repeater.

Operating simplex on the input is more likely to be looked upon as intentional interference.

This is also why you don't get help here like you used to--why should someone give up their time to help just to be insulted for it.

Bad advice should be discouraged, don't you think?

 

[AK9R]

Refer to the actual FCC laws to verify what you are being told (even what I'm typing).

The FCC does not make laws. Only Congress can make laws which are then signed by the President.

The FCC makes rules based on law passed by Congress.

The information you have provided, while technically compliant with FCC rules, does not conform to good operating practice.

Operating simplex on a repeater input frequency is generally a bad idea and could cause interference. Even if the repeater input requires some form of selective access (CTCSS, CDCSS, DTMF, etc.) and you don't transmit with the proper access method, your signal will still cause interference to other repeater users. Since legitimate repeater users have an expectation that the repeater input frequency will be clear of interfering users, most amateur radio operators consider it bad operating practice to transmit on a repeater input unless you intend to use the repeater.

While it's technically legal to set up a repeater with the output on 145.000 MHz, the input of that repeater could end up on a frequency that the local or national band plans consider reserved for other activities. For example, if your 145.000 MHz repeater used a conventional -600 kHz offset, your input would be on 144.400 MHz which is in the satellite sub-band. Technically legal per FCC rules, but still bad operating practice.

Band plans were created to help control the chaos.

That's true. So, making a post on here, which, if followed, would contribute to the chaos seems like a bad idea, doesn't it?

BTW, you keep claiming that you are being insulted. Frankly, the moderators see things differently. You are posting information which most people consider to be bad advice and other posters are identifying that bad advice. If someone were to say that you are ignorant, that would be an insult. But, if someone says that your ideas are ignorant and explains why, that's a healthy debate.

 

[dlwtrunked]

That's not going to fly...
...

97.101 General standards.
(a) In all respects not specifically covered by FCC Rules each amateur station must be operated in accordance with good engineering and good amateur practice.

Learn what the local frequency assignments are, and find a place that fits in. It's really not that difficult.

I hope it is realized that the interpretation of "good" is wider than a barn door.

 

[mikewazowski]

Even the mods here are getting fed up with off topic attacks to OP questions. This is also why you don't get help here like you used to--why should someone give up their time to help just to be insulted for it.



Mods, please lock this thread.

Please don't speak for the mods, you have no idea how we feel.

As for locking the thread, why? It's not your thread to lock and others should be allowed to state their opinions as well. Last time I checked, your opinions carried no more weight than the other members of the site.

 

[nd5y]

For example, if your 145.000 MHz repeater used a conventional -600 kHz offset, your input would be on 144.400 MHz which is in the satellite sub-band. Technically legal per FCC rules,

Actually it would not be legal. See 97.205 (b).
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.97_1205&rgn=div8

 

[zz0468]

I hope it is realized that the interpretation of "good" is wider than a barn door.

Sure. And I hope it's realized that the post I was commenting on misses that barn door by a country mile.

 

[DaveNF2G]

is voluntary--no one is required to coordinate a repeater. I can install a repeater on 145.0 without coordination and no one can do a thing about it.

Contradicted by:

§ 97.205 Repeater station.

(c) Where the transmissions of a repeater cause harmful interference to another repeater, the two station licensees are equally and fully responsible for resolving the interference unless the operation of one station is recommended by a frequency coordinator and the operation of the other station is not. In that case, the licensee of the non-coordinated repeater has primary responsibility to resolve the interference.

If you cause interference to other hams making legitimate use of the frequency, then your non-coordinated status means that you lose. Bandplans are also "voluntary", but the FCC will generally decide in favor of a compliant station over a non-compliant station.

EDIT: I will leave my comment here, but note that I would not have bothered if I had read the rest of the thread to this point first. And that is something I often roll my eyes at other people for doing, so you may shake all the fingers at me you want. mea culpa

 

[KC3ECJ]

With my analog tri bander for simplex I have it like this 146,400-146.595 and 147.405-147.585 in 15khz channel steps.

223.400-223.520 in 20khz steps.

444.975-446.075 in 25khz steps, though could also do 12,5khz with narrow band.

I'll use 145.500 and 145.600 for FM slow scan on 2M.

If I use slow scan or some other data mode, or possibly a digital voice mode I might go to 446.050 with 70cm.

 

[zz0468]

With my analog tri bander for simplex I have it like this 146,400-146.595 and 147.405-147.585 in 15khz channel steps.

223.400-223.520 in 20khz steps.

444.975-446.075 in 25khz steps, though could also do 12,5khz with narrow band.

I'll use 145.500 and 145.600 for FM slow scan on 2M.

If I use slow scan or some other data mode, or possibly a digital voice mode I might go to 446.050 with 70cm.

In the southwest US, some of those choices would be repeater inputs and outputs.

Again, and I can't stress this enough to the new folks out there, find out what LOCAL customs and bandplans are, don't rely on what one person does on the other side of the country. There is no nationwide band plan in use everywhere.

 

[alcahuete]

If you cause interference to other hams making legitimate use of the frequency...

§ 97.205 says nothing about hams making legitimate use of the frequency. Doesn't say anything like that anywhere. Only refers to coordinated vs. uncoordinated repeaters. There would be no coordinated repeater operating on 145.0 because coordinators are not going to go against the band plan. So mentioning that section of .205 makes no sense.

Part b would be the rule that governs operation on 145.0 assuming the standard +-600 offset, but if you use a non-standard offset, i.e. -400 or -200, he is absolutely right that there is nothing that can be done about it, even though it violates the band plan.

Is it good operating practice to do such? Of course not. But the point he is trying to make is that there is a big difference between good operating practice and rules. The FCC has thousands and thousands of pages of regulation. I promise you that if the FCC wanted to completely prohibit somebody from operating a repeater on 145.0, it would be written. In fact, it would be in Part b of .205, with all the other prohibited frequency ranges.

 

[KC3ECJ]

In the southwest US, some of those choices would be repeater inputs and outputs.

Again, and I can't stress this enough to the new folks out there, find out what LOCAL customs and bandplans are, don't rely on what one person does on the other side of the country. There is no nationwide band plan in use everywhere.

Yeah, there is a repeater output on 147.435 in my area.

 

[KB7MIB]

In the southwest US, some of those choices would be repeater inputs and outputs.

Again, and I can't stress this enough to the new folks out there, find out what LOCAL customs and bandplans are, don't rely on what one person does on the other side of the country. There is no nationwide band plan in use everywhere.

And Arizona uses 20kHz channel spacing in the 2m band, not 15 kHz.

I already posted the link to the Arizona coordinating body.

John
Peoria

 

[zz0468]

I promise you that if the FCC wanted to completely prohibit somebody from operating a repeater on 145.0, it would be written. In fact, it would be in Part b of .205, with all the other prohibited frequency ranges.

The people who write federal regulations are pretty good at what they do, and there is generally a "gotcha" somewhere that can be used to corral a problem child, if they must.

Because of the safety of life implications, the approach taken in the Federal Aviation Regulations is to remove all rights, then give them back under specific circumstances. "No pilot shall operate any aircraft, unless..."

In Part 97 , the gotcha is 97.101, using good engineering and amateur practice.

 

[zz0468]

And Arizona used 20kHz channel spacing in the 2m band, not 15 kHz.

I already posted the link to the Arizona coordinating body.

John
Peoria

And in Southern California, 440-450 uses 20 khz spacing, not 25 khz. And yes, I will occasionally find someone on a repeater input and 25 khz channel center, oblivious of the interference he's causing.

 

[AK9R]

Actually it would not be legal. See 97.205 (b).

Good point.

 

[alcahuete]

The people who write federal regulations are pretty good at what they do, and there is generally a "gotcha" somewhere that can be used to corral a problem child, if they must.

Because of the safety of life implications, the approach taken in the Federal Aviation Regulations is to remove all rights, then give them back under specific circumstances. "No pilot shall operate any aircraft, unless..."

In Part 97 , the gotcha is 97.101, using good engineering and amateur practice.

Very true indeed! They are intentionally written by lawyers to rarely be black and white, unless they are really needed to be black and white.

97.101 is a tough one to prove though, when the band plan is 100% voluntary. You can't have a voluntary plan and then slap someone with a violation for not volunteering.

And when you get into 97.101 d (I believe, I don't have it in front of me) the interference portion comes down to both amateurs solving the problem. It is NOT the sole responsibility of the person violating the voluntary band plan, as it is with coordinated vs. uncoordinated repeaters.

 

[DaveNF2G]

97.101 is a tough one to prove though, when the band plan is 100% voluntary. You can't have a voluntary plan and then slap someone with a violation for not volunteering.

You are grasping at straws that do not exist in order to support your own ideas about your own privileges.

Knowingly interfering with other ham operators is a violation. Period. It doesn't matter if what you are doing is "perfectly legit" on paper, or if you have decided not to volunteer to comply with the band plan. If you are interfering and want to assert some sort of right or privilege to operate in such a fashion, you will lose.

You may believe whatever you choose to, but you are not entitled to your own set of rules.

 

[alcahuete]

You are grasping at straws that do not exist in order to support your own ideas about your own privileges.

If you actually took the time to read my posts, you would very clearly see that I said I personally would not and do not violate the band plan. So they are not my own ideas about my own privileges.

Knowingly interfering with other ham operators is a violation.

Knowingly, of course. But that's no different from knowingly causing interference within the band plan. The rules are not somehow unique to somebody operating outside the band plan. And at the same time, somebody knowingly causing interference to you, while you operate outside the band plan, is a violation on their behalf.

So if I operate a repeater output on 145.0 (outside of the band plan) and somebody operating within the band plan knowingly interferes with me, the violation is on THEM, not me. Amazing huh?

So like I said, it is in no way a violation to operate outside of the VOLUNTARY band plan, and whether you agree or not, I don't really care. You are not entitled to your own set of rules, where people operating outside of the VOLUNTARY band plan is a violation. It is voluntary, and if the FCC wanted to change that, or believe it should be changed, it would be done in 5 seconds with the stroke of the pen.