There was a large cluster in the Dallas/FTW area going east west on i30 if memory serves me correctly.
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Gmrs over Roip
- Thread starter KB0VWG
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There was a large cluster in the Dallas/FTW area going east west on i30 if memory serves me correctly.
amphibian
Member
Can we link GMRS Repeaters? This has been answered and has been beat to death and people still are claiming it is illegal.. And the ones claiming it --- are mostly hams.
And for you Mr. N4GIX,
All you had to do was ask....but you didn't dare do that as you knew you would have been told something you didn't want to hear. And this statement: "Completely aside from the total illegality of such an enterprise to begin with..." shows just how ignorant you really are. You really need to get out of your shell and read more often.....
You should learn what the rules are and learn to ask questions before running your mouth about something you evidently know nothing about. You almost sound like you are rebellious that someone could do such a thing on GMRS... Some of you ham operators are always the first to start running your mouth about things you claim you know about but really don't when it comes to GMRS. Somehow you being a ham, have the idea that you manage and own the rights to GMRS. If there is any fantasy going on here, it's in your head.
Not only have I put up repeaters, I've sold several to others for installation at their sites, and I have had several that have joined USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association network and have agreed to allow the use of their already installed and operational repeaters as part of the network....That's why there were a sudden quanity of listing as I waited till they were in and operational. So, it is very possible to have listed 30 or more repeaters in less than a two week period.
And yes, Rich, or someone, over at myGMRS did remove me and all of our repeater listings without first requesting some sort of validation and in doing so only gave the following as a reason: "You have been banned from myGMRS.com due to policy violations.", of which no policy violation have been explained even though we have asked several times as to what the violations were. The only violation we believe that we violated was interfering with listing a network just like what Rich is doing....you know, the competition policy..... Since removal there have been numerous amount of people making statements that Rich was trying to get them to join his network but the prefered to join ours......might say it is a one sided thing over there...either his or not at all....
It's very easy for those of ignorance to make the statements and post posts degrading those that are doing a great job when they don't understand the rules and the fact that there are a lot of people wanting a state/nation wide system to use. All you have to do is look on a place like myGMRS and see that it is true. In case you have forgotten -- Amateur's are not the only ones allowed to link repeaters. May I add while I'm at it, in case you want to claim it later, we are not using Allstar or EchoLink formats either. Not going to open that bag of worms for a bunch of hams to claim we are interfering with their networks on Allstar & EchoLink. I was not the only one to suggest this in the beginning....several good and very informed educated Amateur Radio Operators who have joined our efforts suggested it also.
Also, just so you know who I am, I'm a 66 year old individual who spent most of my working life (over 30 years) within the two-way radio communications field as a dealer, service center, tower owner, designer and mobile data public safety systems provider. Plus I have also applied for and was granted more licenses by FCC than you will probably ever be in your life time. So yes, it again is very possible to have repeaters, antennas, heliax, etc.. that has been gathered over the years and very possible to have a repeater in operation at a site for around a $1000.00. With one like me that is experienced and having the know how, yes it's very possible. I've done it many times over the years... Especially when I'm doing all the labor...
We may have been removed from myGMRS.com, but fear not, our website will be complete and up and running very soon and people will have another, if not more of a professional place (one run by GMRS Licensees and not hammers) where they can list their current & future projected plans of GMRS repeaters.... One that the site is updated on a regular basis and not once every few years. We encourage all owners of GMRS repeaters to come and check it out once our website is up and fully functional.
Our association is and will be for GMRS Licensees, for the education & advancement of GMRS both in usage and technologies...... Coming Soon
If this sound argumentative and degrading it is not intended to be. I just get tired of those thinking that they are bigger than anyone else and know more than others making foolish statements about something they apparently know nothing about..
amphibian
Member
Yes, we have been and are currently in the process of setting up a wide area network for both statewide and nation wide use. Network is comprised of both privately own repeaters and my repeaters....
And yes, we were removed from the other GMRS site where you can list repeaters you have and will have our own association website running soon where you will be able to see the nation wide network we have up..
own one, come join others doing the same....
amphibian
Member
Yes, it is possible using a gateway...
The only thing you have to be cautious about, as to not violate FCC rules, is to make sure you don't have them connected by means of telephone dial-up or DSL connections. Those methods have been determined that routing is through the telephone switched systems. Broadband is legal.... like Cable Internet, T1, or anything in between, up to and including Fiber.....
Also, RF links are allowed as long as they are in band....band licensed for and used by GMRS.
In addition, there is a question now being asked about using a cell phone to control your repeater or to pass voice traffic from your cell through an app out over your GMRS repeater. To use your cell phone, through your carrier's Internet, (not local wifi) is now being considered as being cross banding by several within my circle. We feel there should be clarification on this before attempting to use such methods.... Another reason for the Association so we can centralize such questions and answers for submission to FCC...
This is the information you should have received as an answer to you question, Thanks
RFI-EMI-GUY
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Amphibian
It seems mygmrs.com could be over reacting. There have been a couple systems listed by others that were blatently illegal, a DMR system in the Midwest and a P25 system here in Florida that was described in very hyped terms. Those would raise the attention of FCC enforcement.
Repeater linking and cooperatives are not illegal. I am sure those topics will continue to be beat to death. Like the PSTN, it is dead and buried,
I am very curious what linking technology you are using, because I am a strong proponent of linking, and linking suggests some future standardization.
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
It seems mygmrs.com could be over reacting. There have been a couple systems listed by others that were blatently illegal, a DMR system in the Midwest and a P25 system here in Florida that was described in very hyped terms. Those would raise the attention of FCC enforcement.
Repeater linking and cooperatives are not illegal. I am sure those topics will continue to be beat to death. Like the PSTN, it is dead and buried,
I am very curious what linking technology you are using, because I am a strong proponent of linking, and linking suggests some future standardization.
Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Oh my, you should have followed your own advice sir.
First of all, my posts are signed with my real name: Bill
My ham and GMRS call signs are also in my signature. Unlike yourself, I have absolute transparency and don't hide behind an anonymous screen name! All my details are publicly available either through the FCC database or qrz.coml.
Secondly, I own five GMRS repeaters, and belong to an association that has been in continuous existence since 1966 here in Chicago's Northeast side. The founder and CEO of the North Shore Emergency Association (GMRS | Chicago | repeater | public service | club | radio) is a practicing attorney who's special area of practice involves radio law.
I can assure you that neither he nor I are ignorant of the FCC's byzantine regulations. Since the founding of NSEA, in order to prevent any hint of impropriety, membership is completely free of charge. No dues of any sort are required. Contributions freely offered are gratefully accepted of course, but there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever for fiduciary obligation of the membership. It has been written into our By-Laws which are on file with the State of Illinois and the U.S. Government as a registered 501(c)(3) organization. A serendipitous side effect is that we are eligible to accept donated equipment from various entities, and even qualify for grants from both the State and Federal Government to enable us to better carry out our various mission and support activities.
Although listed as a "Private" system, our repeater system is available to any licensed GMRS operator, whether formal members or not. We only ask that non-members not interfere with our weekly net ever Sunday evening.
Just for the record, RF linking has always been permissible and NSEA has used such in the past. We are now beginning the process of linking via RoIP using BridgeCom's MV Series RoIP Gateways: https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/collections/repeater-linking/products/mv-series
Our newest repeater will be installed within the next few months on the top floor (1,128') of the Hancock Building in downtown Chicago, and is replacing one that has been in service already for fourteen years before being forced into retirement due to a failing PA and other assorted ills. It is being replaced by a Motorola MotoTRBO running in straight analog mode full bandwidth. It will become the flagship repeater for NSEA with the others acting normally as voted receivers. With a proven footprint of ~125 statute miles diameter, the other repeaters will mostly have their transmitters on standby, only to become active in case the main repeater is down for whatever reason. Again, one of the benefits of using RoIP linking for total remote control!
Just for additional background, I once owned South Texas Radio Service (a licensed GESS) with offices in Corpus Christi, Kingsville and Brownsville, Texas. So I have done my share of LMR time in the trenches. Prior to that I owned Antennas Unlimited in north Florida, where we specialized in communication towers as well as residential TV tower systems.
When my late brother was diagnosed with terminal hepatic (liver) cancer, I sold STRS and moved up to Northwest Indiana to care for him until he passed in 1999. As you can see, I've been around in this radio bean patch for my 40+ years too.
Frankly sir, at sixty-eight years I've got far too much to keep me occupied and don't really have the time to bloviate. I just got back from an exhausting meeting of my amateur radio club planning out our activities for the rest of the year. :lol:
amphibian
Member
The problem with myGMRS.com is that they can ban anyone for any reason (no different than others can do) and claim it was for "Violation of Policy" because they have no rules, policies or any other regulations of or about their site place anywhere on their web page. Nothing stating as to how or what the rules for their site are. Not very professional --- but that is expected from those that are young and inexperienced in the development of web sites.
Hopefully the restraint of using DMR will change soon. GMRS Licensee are just as entitled to new technologies as anyone else. I think FCC knows that and will see the writing on the wall before too long. The Association's hope, once in full swing, is to move that along and get it approved in the very near future.
Our linking technology is not a new one. It uses Asterisk just like others do. I have been using Asterisk since the beginning back 2001 to control radios and as PBX systems, so it stands to reason that since it was originally designed to work with RF why not continue to use it for that. When I state I won't allow Allstar or EchoLinks format (not that they have any special type of operating system as it uses Asterisk also) it means I will not allow for the opportunity to connect to either one of those networks from our network. Protections written into the code prevents that from occurring. Its been a standard for some time so why not keep it as a standard..
amphibian
Member
Oh my, you should have followed your own advice sir.
First of all, my posts are signed with my real name: Bill
My ham and GMRS call signs are also in my signature. Unlike yourself, I have absolute transparency and don't hide behind an anonymous screen name! All my details are publicly available either through the FCC database or qrz.coml.
Secondly, I own five GMRS repeaters, and belong to an association that has been in continuous existence since 1966 here in Chicago's Northeast side. The founder and CEO of the North Shore Emergency Association (GMRS | Chicago | repeater | public service | club | radio) is a practicing attorney who's special area of practice involves radio law.
I can assure you that neither he nor I are ignorant of the FCC's byzantine regulations. Since the founding of NSEA, in order to prevent any hint of impropriety, membership is completely free of charge. No dues of any sort are required. Contributions freely offered are gratefully accepted of course, but there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever for fiduciary obligation of the membership. It has been written into our By-Laws which are on file with the State of Illinois and the U.S. Government as a registered 501(c)(3) organization. A serendipitous side effect is that we are eligible to accept donated equipment from various entities, and even qualify for grants from both the State and Federal Government to enable us to better carry out our various mission and support activities.
Although listed as a "Private" system, our repeater system is available to any licensed GMRS operator, whether formal members or not. We only ask that non-members not interfere with our weekly net ever Sunday evening.
Just for the record, RF linking has always been permissible and NSEA has used such in the past. We are now beginning the process of linking via RoIP using BridgeCom's MV Series RoIP Gateways: https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/collections/repeater-linking/products/mv-series
Our newest repeater will be installed within the next few months on the top floor (1,128') of the Hancock Building in downtown Chicago, and is replacing one that has been in service already for fourteen years before being forced into retirement due to a failing PA and other assorted ills. It is being replaced by a Motorola MotoTRBO running in straight analog mode full bandwidth. It will become the flagship repeater for NSEA with the others acting normally as voted receivers. With a proven footprint of ~125 statute miles diameter, the other repeaters will mostly have their transmitters on standby, only to become active in case the main repeater is down for whatever reason. Again, one of the benefits of using RoIP linking for total remote control!
Just for additional background, I once owned South Texas Radio Service (a licensed GESS) with offices in Corpus Christi, Kingsville and Brownsville, Texas. So I have done my share of LMR time in the trenches. Prior to that I owned Antennas Unlimited in north Florida, where we specialized in communication towers as well as residential TV tower systems.
When my late brother was diagnosed with terminal hepatic (liver) cancer, I sold STRS and moved up to Northwest Indiana to care for him until he passed in 1999. As you can see, I've been around in this radio bean patch for my 40+ years too.
Frankly sir, at sixty-eight years I've got far too much to keep me occupied and don't really have the time to bloviate. I just got back from an exhausting meeting of my amateur radio club planning out our activities for the rest of the year. :lol:
As I said in a private message..... I accept your bloated apology in regards to the derogatory remarks you made toward me and the Association and our network of repeaters we have.
K5MPH
Member
Very well said i must say.......
As a personal ad hominem attack, it was indeed articulate and well crafted. :roll:
If you choose to consider my reply an "apology" so be it. It was nothing of the sort of course, but was instead a well-crafted statement of my own bona-fides and background.
It is clear however that you did not actually read what I wrote, nor did you investigate the links I provided.
Here then is a brief recap using shorter, more declarative sentences:
- I am at least as experienced as you claim to be with more than 40 years in the communications industry.
- The founder and CEO of a group of which I'm a member is a practicing attorney who's specialty is communications law.
- It is he who has determined in consultation with the FCC that no charge is permitted for access to any GMRS repeater or group membership.
- Repeater linking is allowed except for the now moribund "Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN)."
- Our 'flagship' repeater to be returned to the Hancock tower in downtown Chicago is a brand new MotoTRBO repeater in analog mode for the time being. It is anticipated that DMR will one day be permissible, so we may as well plan for that possibility.
- I own and operate five linked GMRS repeaters using RoIP.
- NSEA used RF linking since around 1976, and is now migrating to RoIP.
- I do not hide my identity. I am totally transparent with nothing to conceal.
In any event I do sincerely wish you the best of luck with your endeavors, however they may unfold.
I also apologize to the OP for this unseemly hijacking of his thread.
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Here is a short video presentation of the MV RoIP units from BridgeCom in operation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLGW60kg3A3nHIFY26nyK1NlGmjSPzjpJ3&v=YNuLyUE4qTw
Here is a link to a PDF presentation of a 45 site RoIP installation in
Baldwin County School District located in Baldwin County, Alabama.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...mTLNET-IP-SiteConnect.pdf?5748072174048734527
K5MPH
Member
I watched the video,can that system be integrated in to a mesh system......
KB0VWG
Member
Cool thanks for the Info kb5zcs and everyone else that assisted with my questions, This is not going to happen right a way but will soon.
Thanks everyone and 73's
kb0vwg
wqyy385
Honestly, I don't know. Ron or Tim at BridgeCom would be delighted to answer your question though...
amphibian
Member
What are you trying to do...
use an existing wifi "mesh network" to get your repeaters linked up? I think you would find that your mesh system, depending how many nodes are on it already, would come to a abrupt halt by doing so. Linking your repeaters on a mesh network that already has serious overhead issues to deal with and then throwing ulaw codec or even GSM codec on top of that would consume some major bandwidth.... Been there, tried it years ago, didn't work well... with newer technologies and processors of today --- it may work....
or,
are you wanting to set your GMRS repeaters up like a "mesh network" (if you want to use that term) to cover a large local or statewide area? You could do that with Ras Pi's running Asterisk, and a few RA-35's (RA-35 Radio Adapter Interface Board - by W3KKC) interfaced to your repeaters or control stations. Would require someone have knowledge of Asterisk Software and coding.
You could even do a voter/receiver setup with the Pi, RA-35's... In other words, if you have a repeater up on a tall tower or building that can be heard pretty much across the county but has issues receiving mobiles or handheld portables (units of low power) you could setup several receivers throughout the county(s) and have the Pi's attached to the receivers to route the received audio back to the repeater by means of "selective voter" operations. Voter/Receivers are permissible to do on GMRS.
Explain a little more of what you are wanting to accomplish and I will offer up what I can to help you out....
RFI-EMI-GUY
Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2013
- Messages
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CFR 47 Part 95.33 describes the non profit cooperative use of GMRS repeaters should anyone need proof that such a venture is permitted.
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47 CFR 95.33.3(ii) is where the confusion arises. The only equitable way to prorate actual "capital and operating expenses including the cost of mobile stations and paging receivers" is after such expenses are recorded and reported to the taxing authorities at the end of each fiscal year.
Subsections (i) and (iii) are crystal clear and need no interpretation.
RFI-EMI-GUY
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 6,877
I think you are reading way too much into this.
1) Mobile equipment costs should be borne by co-op subscribers. There, that is taken care of.
2) You are making an assumption the network is going to be fully funded in the first year, at risk of being profitable. A "high class problem"!
3) Without going into the minutia of the CAPEX and OPEX here, much of this can be worked out on a spreadsheet. Is the system going to be built from new? There should be known or estimated costs.How many members of the co-op? Its just math. So what if there is a windfall? Decide among the group to expand the system or issue a credit back to the shareholders before end of the tax year. Or operate strictly on donations and take the risk of being unfunded.
The book keeping requirements should be simple enough, an agreement signed by co-op members outlining responsibilities and the structure of the expense funding, a book keeping spreadsheet kept current with an accounting of all monies received.
Under the current market the biggest expenditures are going to be related to sites. There is no longer any free lunch for roof tops and tower space. This in itself may further drive the need to cooperatively build networks using less desirable sites.
The only risk is if the system becomes "profitable" and the operators decide to take a cut instead of plowing it back into expansion or issuing a refund. If a competing licensee sees this happening and reports this to FCC they will shut it down theoretically. Just make sure it is above board and transparent.
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