Government entities using expired licenses: How I became a pseudo-detective

[RaleighGuy]

I guarantee you are listening to an image of a higher frequency in 450 - 470 MHz, and the audio cut off before the last character finished transmitting, because nothing in ULS has that call sign structure. You are not hearing anything that is transmitting on 416.9 MHz. 416.9 MHz is an NTIA asset and is not controlled by the FCC (although the FCC will act on someone transmitting there if they are unauthorized).

OP already admited that was a typo and he meant 461.900

 

[GM]

In the case of Local/State Governments, or Schools that are publicly run, a simple meeting with a Councilman, Ward Member, State Senator, or school board member prior to, or after a general "open to the public" meeting should be good enough to get their attention to have the license updated. As for private schools, I was able to alert the principal of the school of their license expiration from a year ago, (due to the position of who I work for), and to have the matter looked into. I was contacted a week later and asked what their call sign was, how I knew, etc. When I gave them all that information, their license was promptly reviewed by their FCC coordinator/vendor, who then took care of the license renewal. And about a month later, they got a new call sign since their license had lapsed for too long. But they are "legal to operate" again on their assigned frequencies and did not have to change them.

 

[902]

OP already admited that was a typo and he meant 461.900

I stand corrected.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Yeah; I did a narrow band audit for a regional college and found dozens of odd frequencies in their 300 plus portable radios. They had three main campuses each dealing with a different radio dealer. The dealers would just program whatever "spare" frequencies the dealers had licensed. The entire county UHF spectrum was gobbled up with dealer licenses, and many of them expired licenses.

 

[CrabbyMilton]

Or they don't bother or care since they (FCC) thinks that the warehouse, hotel, rental car shuttle bus, Frank the strip mall guard and his two sons, and the local High School athletic department, are just using FRS radios, push to talk over cell phone frequencies anyway so it doesn't matter if they just happened to grab the radios that expired back in 2007. Don't ask don't tell and we'll all get along just fine.

 

[902]

Yeah; I did a narrow band audit for a regional college and found dozens of odd frequencies in their 300 plus portable radios. They had three main campuses each dealing with a different radio dealer. The dealers would just program whatever "spare" frequencies the dealers had licensed. The entire county UHF spectrum was gobbled up with dealer licenses, and many of them expired licenses.

When I took my fire department up to UHF, one of the best features was to take the unused channels, enter into an MOU with the various high rise buildings in our jurisdiction, and program their frequencies into the scan list. We were able to obtain enhanced situational awareness that way. As the first-in engine was responding, the officer would hear building security or maintenance chatter and knew right away if there was smoke in the building or a faulty detector. They could determine strategy en route. But it did need a lot of prior coordination and administrative footwork. You can't just plop 'em in.

 

[902]

Or they don't bother or care since they (FCC) thinks that the warehouse, hotel, rental car shuttle bus, Frank the strip mall guard and his two sons, and the local High School athletic department, are just using FRS radios, push to talk over cell phone frequencies anyway so it doesn't matter if they just happened to grab the radios that expired back in 2007. Don't ask don't tell and we'll all get along just fine.

To an extent, that's how it works. Things go on cruise control until something happens. Otherwise, no one notices or cares. These days, where ULS went from 15 pages down to maybe 2 pages in some communities, the absence of LMR activity allows for even more users to go unchallenged. Even when their licenses have been expired for years. Digital modes attract a little more attention, though.

 

[ecps92]

I stand corrected.

you can now sit back errr down

 

[PreferredCustomer]

It seems the FCC is largely a paper tiger nowadays, unless public safety, aeronautical, or commercial frequencies are disrupted.

 

[mmckenna]

It seems the FCC is largely a paper tiger nowadays, unless public safety, aeronautical, or commercial frequencies are disrupted.

Seems to go in waves. They are really big on busting pirate FM broadcast and robocallers right now. Broadcast companies have a lot of clout in Washington, and a lot of money to sway things their way. Enough people complained about robocallers to get their attention.

The rest of it seems to ebb and flow. There'll be a bunch of ham enforcement that will come through, and then it gets quite for a while. Then they seem to focus on something else.

Some think the FCC is just driving around looking for things, but they rely mostly on complaints. And the more detailed the complaint is, the better. I've seen them react pretty fast when someone really lays out the case for them.

 

[IC-R20]

I'm assuming you mean 461.900 not 416.9. 461.900 is active for a radio rental company under the license WNYN376, many users might be on it, depending on how busy each is, and how radios are programmed one user would never know another was on it.

416.900 is in the range of federal government frequencies, it is also not on the license KNFT77. How did you connect the two? I've seen sometimes where license info programmed and transmitted by a repeater isn't always changed after install or new user (my county system for one).

Also, 416.9 has never been on a FCC license according to a search for current and expired licenses.

View attachment 158676

Right, those federal ranges are normally coordinated and allocated by the NTIA so usually you would never see them on the FCC database to begin with. If OP wants to be a whacker they should probably do their research first.

 

[redbeard]

Right, those federal ranges are normally coordinated and allocated by the NTIA so usually you would never see them on the FCC database to begin with. If OP wants to be a whacker they should probably do their research first.

In your rush to call the OP a whacker, you neglected to read the rest of the thread where it was determined to be a typo and that NTIA were not involved at all.

 

[Golay]

We have a three users like this near me:

A DPW that expired over 20 years ago still using every day. This one sort of surprises me because most cities and townships use the same vendor, who is eager to sell a new system when the base coax gets old. Usually that vendor stays on top of that sort of thing.

The second is a tow truck company still using radios. Rare around me for a business like that to not just be using cells. Their license has also been expired for at least 10 years. But they're still dispatching.

The third is one of our communities still paging out. First responders have transitioned to a trunked P25 system. But one still pages out fire on the old VHF freq. The license hasn't been renewed since the 800 MHz system came online about 15 years ago.

 

[wa8pyr]

Yes, I was just saying that in the exact moment I was listening, it happened to play.


From the station identifier. I attached it in the original post if you would like to hear it.


What happens now if WNYN376 decides to use their allocated frequency? If it causes issues who will win?

If there's a conflict, the guy with the active license wins. Either the outfit with the expired license has to move, or get licensed and pay for the other guy to move.

 

[902]

you can now sit back errr down

Thanks, Bill! I think I'll take you up on that offer.

 

[902]

If there's a conflict, the guy with the active license wins. Either the outfit with the expired license has to move, or get licensed and pay for the other guy to move.

There are a lot of variables, especially in public safety systems. The FCC's decisions may not necessarily make sense without knowing backstories and political dynamics.

What usually happens is the one of the two is forced into accepting another frequency. The coordinator with whom the Commission holds an MOU with typically has to eat the coordination costs. The moving agency usually ends up paying for their own move, regardless of who expired. Much of the time, they'll make unreasonable demands, like a wide split between transmit and receive, when the only resources available may be close-spaced and require a better duplexer. And, almost always, the legacy licenses were over-height and over-ERP for the areas they've identified in their coverage. Any new coordination would need to be "right-sized," potentially forcing simulcast with lower sites, much lower ERP antennas, and engineered radiation patterns. Much of that is transparent to a hobbyist, but someone would notice that the system no longer talks-out the way it used to. That may be because they were compelled to replace a large antenna with something that's smaller and more directive, or use less power to cover their area of operation. And in some cases, their area of operation has to be redefined. Like a 1 square mile town claiming to need 40 km to cover their town. Then they fail the test: "If you were parked in the lot at (something 40 km outside town) what would happen? A) no one would care because you're in your jurisdiction; B) you are just slightly out of your area; or C) you are far outside of your area and you will probably get suspended or more severe discipline."

Also factoring in is whether new emissions are added to whichever license. Expired licenses aren't always factual documents. New systems in TDMA would require additional coordination to evaluate receiver sites (which aren't part of ULS as they would have been in Canada or most other nations). So, that's nice when it happens, but sometimes that's not what happens at all. I've never seen a one agency pay another to move.

Lately, many of these expired systems that were given unfavorable replacements have found themselves migrating to larger countywide or statewide SMRs, completely vacating the frequency band they were on. Yet, they'll park on the license like it was real estate.

 

[N9JIG]

If there's a conflict, the guy with the active license wins. Either the outfit with the expired license has to move, or get licensed and pay for the other guy to move.

Yep! A suburb in the Chicago area had 2 800 MHz. repeater pairs and failed to renew the license on one of them, as soon as the grace period ended that pair was licensed by a utility. Now that village had to move operations to the remaining repeater and vacate the main channel. Too bad, so sad, ya snooze, ya lose!

The CTA in Chicago is going thru the same issue right now, several of its licenses expired and the freqs gobbled up by a large SMR company. They are still working to figure that out.

 

[celestis]

Often these letters went to someone specific at the agency. Said specific person may have retired, moved on, been abducted by aliens, etc. Someone tosses the letter in the recycle bin because "Bob" retired.

Never was a fan of the cellular companies but at least they're organized well and use a generic alias inbox (fccbshere@cellco.net) to receive regulatory correspondence that gets forwarded to an actual person that can be changed at will

 

[mmckenna]

Never was a fan of the cellular companies but at least they're organized well and use a generic alias inbox (fccbshere@cellco.net) to receive regulatory correspondence that gets forwarded to an actual person that can be changed at will

We do that at work with anything that requires renewal. Or at least a group e-mail list.

 

[KB4MSZ]

Does the FCC give out rewards for being a snitch?

If they did you could quickly become a billionaire with 11 meters.