Government entities using expired licenses: How I became a pseudo-detective

[Facsimile]

The following two points are what this post revolves around:

• Frequency: 416.9 mhz.
• Callsigns: WNYN376, KNFT47Z, KNFT477

I've been trying to find out more about this insanely strong signal coming from somewhere nearby. I did a search on the frequency using the database on this site as well as the FCC database. Both point to the active callsign WNYN376. This active license is supposed to be using either P25 or NXDN. What is being transmitted is DMR.

As you can imagine, I was confused. Then, just out of pure luck, the station identifier was transmitted. It was KNFT47Z. I searched the databases again and came up empty handed. I've attached the recording of the station identifier for your enjoyment as it doesn't appear to be programmed correctly as you will see below.

I then decided to look at inactive licenses. An inactive license with the callsign KNFT477 showed. No, that is not a typo - see above. Sure enough, the emissions pointed directly to DMR. One of many questions I have is: Is it common for government entities, in this case a school system, to let their license expire (assuming unknowingly) and continue to use equipment? The license has been expired for two years.

I just found this interesting and thought I would share. Does the FCC give out rewards for being a snitch?

 

[a417]

Then, just out of pure luck, the station identifier was transmitted.

Not really luck, they're required to. Systems are usually configured to do it automatically at initial configuration, and then they just keep on going. I've even seen municipalities have licenses change, and they forget to change an odd repeater or two.

Is it common for government entities, in this case a school system, to let their license expire (assuming unknowingly) and continue to use equipment? The license has been expired for two years.

yes. happens all the time.

Does the FCC give out rewards for being a snitch?

lol, no.

 

[nd5y]

Where did you get KNFT47Z from?

Yes expired licenses are common. Governments and businesses aren't run by radio or FCC licensing experts.

 

[Facsimile]

Not really luck, they're required to.

Yes, I was just saying that in the exact moment I was listening, it happened to play.

Where did you get KNFT47Z from?

From the station identifier. I attached it in the original post if you would like to hear it.


What happens now if WNYN376 decides to use their allocated frequency? If it causes issues who will win?

 

[Facsimile]

Yes expired licenses are common. Governments and businesses aren't run by radio or FCC licensing experts.

But this one appears to be doesn't it? ATLAS LICENSE COMPANY & DATA SERVICES

 

[mmckenna]

Is it common for government entities, in this case a school system, to let their license expire (assuming unknowingly) and continue to use equipment? The license has been expired for two years.

As others said, YES.

Not all public agencies have someone who's radio savvy on staff. A lot of the time they work with a radio shop to get what they need. The shop will sell them the equipment and charge them for frequency coordination and licensing services. Someone cuts a purchase order and they get their new radio system.

10 years rolls by and the license is getting close to expiring. The FCC does (or at least did) send out letters telling you that your license was about to expire. Often these letters went to someone specific at the agency. Said specific person may have retired, moved on, been abducted by aliens, etc. Someone tosses the letter in the recycle bin because "Bob" retired.
Or, it goes to some admin person who doesn't know the difference between the FCC, the FFA, the FAA, or the FA&FO and thinks it is junk mail.
Or maybe it goes to someone and they have no clue how to renew the license (FREE for public agencies) and it all gets forgotten about.

A good radio shop will track this stuff and then remind the public agency that their license is about to expire and for the "low, low fee of $299" we'll do all the complex FCC paperwork so you don't go to jail.

A big enough agency will have someone on staff that handles this stuff. Even with that, sometimes it gets dropped.

Truth is the end user of the radio system has no idea about this stuff. They don't know anything about FCC licenses, to them, everything is cell phones, WiFi or CB radio.

A gentle reminder to said agency may get this fixed.
Or not.

Always a good idea to check the expired licenses.

 

[mmckenna]

What happens now if WNYN376 decides to use their allocated frequency? If it causes issues who will win?

Very common for systems to share frequencies in some close proximity.
A good system will handle that sort of interference without being a big deal.

 

[mmckenna]

But this one appears to be doesn't it? ATLAS LICENSE COMPANY & DATA SERVICES

Atlas License Company - Home of the Original License Guard

FCC License Assistance for Business / Industrial and Public Safety. New or Modified Licenses, License Renewal. Home of License Guard services for Expiration Protection and FCC Construction Notifications: GUARANTEED!

www.alcds.com

"Home of the Original License Guard! Protect your FCC License!"​

While renewal is free from the FCC, these companies charge. Some admin person at the agency doesn't want to pay, the company doesn't renew. Things go along fine until someone catches them, or a frequency coordinator reassigns those frequency pairs to someone else and the new user complains about interference.

It happens.

 

[RaleighGuy]

The following two points are what this post revolves around:

• Frequency: 416.9 mhz.
• Callsigns: WNYN376, KNFT47Z, KNFT477

I've been trying to find out more about this insanely strong signal coming from somewhere nearby. I did a search on the frequency using the database on this site as well as the FCC database. Both point to the active callsign WNYN376. This active license is supposed to be using either P25 or NXDN. What is being transmitted is DMR.

As you can imagine, I was confused. Then, just out of pure luck, the station identifier was transmitted. It was KNFT47Z. I searched the databases again and came up empty handed. I've attached the recording of the station identifier for your enjoyment as it doesn't appear to be programmed correctly as you will see below.

I then decided to look at inactive licenses. An inactive license with the callsign KNFT477 showed.

I'm assuming you mean 461.900 not 416.9. 461.900 is active for a radio rental company under the license WNYN376, many users might be on it, depending on how busy each is, and how radios are programmed one user would never know another was on it.

416.900 is in the range of federal government frequencies, it is also not on the license KNFT77. How did you connect the two? I've seen sometimes where license info programmed and transmitted by a repeater isn't always changed after install or new user (my county system for one).

Also, 416.9 has never been on a FCC license according to a search for current and expired licenses.

 

[nd5y]

From the station identifier. I attached it in the original post if you would like to hear it.

That was weird. I didn't see any attachment earlier.
Their repeater controller or IDer is messed up. It unkeys before all of the last character is sent.
7 = - - . . .
Z = - - . .

 

[nd5y]

416.900 is in the range of federal government frequencies,

I think that was a typo (only I am allowed to do that). 461.900 makes sense.

 

[RaleighGuy]

I think that was a typo (only I am allowed to do that). 461.900 makes sense.

Posted edited to include that, thanks.

 

[Facsimile]

I think that was a typo (only I am allowed to do that). 461.900 makes sense.

YES! My apologies. No matter how much I proofread, I always miss something.

Thank you for all of the information everyone. This has been extremely enlightening.

 

[a417]

Saw some folks put a hammy repeater on the air, which was surplussed from a large municipal police department - and they didn't change the IDer.

That was cute.

 

[RaleighGuy]

Saw some folks put a hammy repeater on the air, which was surplussed from a large municipal police department - and they didn't change the IDer.

That was cute.

Our county system has broadcast WPIX11 since the start, which is not the callsign

 

[a417]

Our county system has broadcast WPIX11 since the start, which is not the callsign

View attachment 158684

Hahahaha, considering the WPIX licenses start with *200s, and i'm pretty sure it's not this one .... there's only 7 or 8 ones it's gotta be!

 

[RaleighGuy]

Hahahaha, considering the WPIX licenses start with *200s, and i'm pretty sure it's not this one .... there's only 7 or 8 ones it's gotta be!

None of the above, Wake Co has no WPIX licenses.

 

[wbloss]

WPIX (channel 11) is a television station in New York City that serves as the flagship of The CW Television Network

 

[jmp883]

The license at the agency I dispatch for expired several years ago. No one in department administration ever knew. Our license is in a 3-ring binder in the radio room. I was going through that binder one overnight shift and noticed that it was expired. I brought it to the attention of my supervisor and the license was renewed. After 20-some years of saying one callsign we all had to learn a new one. The bosses asked how I knew about the license, and that it was expired, and I told them that radio is a hobby of mine and that I am a licensed amateur radio operator. I’m now the department radio “adviser”. Any time anyone in the department has a radio question, or issue, they reach out to me first. If I can help i can, but most of the time I refer them to our radio vendor.

 

[902]

I guarantee you are listening to an image of a higher frequency in 450 - 470 MHz, and the audio cut off before the last character finished transmitting, because nothing in ULS has that call sign structure. You are not hearing anything that is transmitting on 416.9 MHz. 416.9 MHz is an NTIA asset and is not controlled by the FCC (although the FCC will act on someone transmitting there if they are unauthorized).

Expired licenses? That's funny! Administrators from schools, police departments, fire departments, various town departments, hospitals, etc. run their operations (some better than others) and they are completely ignorant when it comes to radio. The vendor that put the radio system in years ago is long out of touch, if they're still in business. The administrators don't care, either. If it's plugged in and working, no one is concerned.

What happened? Why do licenses expire? Usually because someone wrote a name on the license as a point of contact. That person retired, died, or was laid off years ago. Someone sees the name and the letter goes into the garbage can. Literally, this is what happens. Or a new person is in the job and has no idea what the scope of their duties are, thinking, "Hmmph, look at this." (and THEN s/he throws the letter in the garbage). Then, someone comes along and throws another radio system onto the same frequency, because they let their license expire. It doesn't matter if they "had" a license, at that point where it's expired, they have nothing.

Now they complain to the FCC and the FCC turfs them over to someone who has an MOU with them for first echelon problem solving because they don't have the staff to figure things out anymore. Someone (used to be someone like me in a previous job) would look into it and tell these people, "Hey, your licenses has been expired for 2 years. Why didn't you do your due diligence and renew it?" Then I'd hear the same story. People changed, there was never any tie-in as far as this needed to be done. The license was never posted and was probably thrown out, too, or shoved in a file cabinet. Then sometimes that's followed by a belligerent "YOU HAVE TO..." to which I'd usually interrupt and get equally confrontational with, "YOU HAD TO renew the damned license! Now you get what you get!" At that point, if they cannot clear the actually licensed system, they have to find a new frequency. It will probably not work as well, it may have more interference, and the new frequency will probably require some channel that was 240 Watts ERP be reduced to 40 Watts now. Tough stuff. Should've kept the license up.

That's what happens. It's unpleasant. And, no, there's no rat pay for turning them in.
Can the FCC fine them? Yes, but it's very bad press and public entities call their politicians and complain. That literally puts the brakes on at the Commission until they directly address the Member of Congress' correspondence. The Commission is very hesitant to fine public safety entities, although OP is talking about a school on business frequencies. Business frequencies are coordinated on the basis of channel loading, and the FCC always points to frequencies that are not exclusively licensed (i.e., "FB8") as "shared use." In other words, "play nice with each other" because neither will like the result if daddy has to get involved.

Someone is going to make a lot of money re-licensing them and attempting to unscrew that which was screwed as a result of the negligence. Or, more to real life, they'll ignore it more and then figure out how to use something else for communication.