Handheld/Mobile Radio Reccomendations for Fire Members

[ecrespol]

Apologies if this is not the right place to post this, but I was hoping to get some recommendations for Handheld and/or Mobile radio recommendations that we can give to our members as an alternative/addition to our department-issued Minitor Pagers. We have department-owned radios that are used for IS situations, but historically a number of our members have had personal radios as well. Unfortunately, we are in an area with no cellular coverage (otherwise we would be using the I Am Responding). Historically we have had success with Baofeng UV-82 and UV-9R, but a lot of the radios recently that members have purchased don't appear to be programmable for the frequencies we use (154-156 typically). I'm asking for recommendations for both handheld and mobile radios that do the following;

* Waterproof/Water-resistant
* Programmable in the 154-156 VHF range
* Dual Watch or reliable scan mode
* Programmable with free included software (or Chirp)

 

[mmckenna]

Welcome,

There's a lot of details you need to consider. There are legal/licensing issues that need to be taken into account. I'm going to add one line to your list based on U.S. rules, if you are not in the USA, rules will vary slightly:

* Waterproof/Water-resistant
* Programmable in the 154-156 VHF range
* Dual Watch or reliable scan mode
* Programmable with free included software (or Chirp)

* Must have valid FCC Part 90 certification

The FCC issued license for your agency comes with some very clear rules that must be met. There is no waiver for these rules. Lack of budget, volunteer status, location, etc, all doesn't matter, the FCC license binds you to these rules and it is absolutely, 100% the responsibility of the licensee to meet these requirements, even for personally owned radios.

Most of your requirements are not a challenge.
Water resistant is pretty easy to do. Most quality two way radios will have some level of water resistance.
Programmable in the VHF range isn't an issue
Scan mode isn't an issue, just be aware that scanning risks someone missing a call.

Where you'll run into challenges is with the "Chirp" software. Quality commercial quality radios won't use Chirp. Chirp was a piece of software written for amateur radio/hobby users. While it will support some low tier commercial radios, it's not something that will work with the sort of radios you probably want.

The FCC part 90 certification is something that is required under your license. It's not optional, and it's something that is often missed by those that do not understand commercial/public safety two way radio rules.

The Baofengs are not suitable radios. They are a cheap Chinese radio designed for hobby use and have no place in public safety. Many do not have the FCC Part 90 certification that is required under your license. I would not want my local fire department relying on a $14 Chinese radio when it comes to my life.


I know cost is always a challenge, but there's really good reasons that the quality radios cost more. If cost is really a concern, stick with the pagers. If you want reliable radios, then make sure your people get the right gear, especially if lives depend on it.

Kenwood, Icom and Motorola all make suitable radios that will do what you want. Kenwood and Icom have some entry level radios that will do what you need, as well as support two tone paging, so they could replace the current pagers. Easy to get those in the $200-$300 range, and they'll meet the FCC part 90 requirements. Programming software isn't free, but it's not expensive, either. It's designed for the radio and will work correctly and not risk borking up and screwing up the radio.

Another option to consider is to check around with larger local agencies and see if they are surplussing any used gear. I'd put a properly maintained used Kenwood/Icom/Motorola radio up against the Chinese crap radios any day.

 

[clbsquared]

If this is for fire service DO NOT under any circumstances use ANY radio that can be programmed with chirp. Buy radios that are rated for what you are doing. Yeah, you can replace a $14.99 Baofeng if it gets dropped, burned, drowned, etc. Now, think about that firefighter that goes into a burning building and finds himself in a life endangering situation. He grabs his $14.99 radio with a $3.99 shoulder mic attached to it, and it just squishes into his structural gloves. Ohh ****!! No comms!!

 

[MTS2000des]

Never ceases to amaze me how those in the fire service want to implement lowest common denominator consumer feces pieces radios for use in IDLH environments.

Basic quality radios that do analog VHF from REPUTABLE MANUFACTURERS are widely available from JVC Kenwood, Icom, L3 Harris, BK/Relm, Motorola Solutions- yet instead of that, they want to use "Programmable with free included software (or Chirp)"- translated "we want Bowelturd grade radios that unskilled, non-certified persons can program because we don't want to pay a qualified shop to do subscriber programming nor pay a few hundred bucks a pop for radios actually designed for industrial use".

You don't buy fire hose at Wal-Mart. You don't source turnout gear from Temu. You don't buy BA from a toy shop. Why when it comes to radio, one of THE most IMPORTANT items one working in an IDLH environment NEEDS to SURVIVE, does the cost cutter mode go into high gear?

Guess no one there has ever dealt with OSHA, attorneys in lawsuits in workman's compensation, or had to explain to a loved one why so and so isn't coming home because their turdpile Bowelturd was carried into a fire and never heard the evac tone because it got overloaded by stray RF from a light bulb. SMH.

 

[otobmark]

My guess is that the volunteers don't need the radios at work, but rather at home just to be a little more in the loop and increase their situational awareness and maybe avoid a trip to the firehouse if they can find out what is going on and maybe confirm receipt of page. Now if he is looking for a "work" radio that would be completely different and all previous posts cover that pretty well. My understanding is that pagers work weak signals better than radios so I'd think that is still going to be primary contact with off duty personnel. For awhile our SAR teams had cashes of dual band chinese radios to hand out to volunteers who might show up at an incident (the something better than nothing and they will probably loose or destroy them anyway kind of thinking). The official team had tier 1 gear except for DMR and HF. The next cashe buying round is supposed to be basic kenwoods (1300's ???). So, for me it will be the best gear I can afford be it radios or eyeglasses.
So, as long as the cheap radio doesn't "replace" essential gear but is just a hedge bet I see no problem with OP's plan. Do get Part 90 radio though or you might cause problems since you are interfacing with the professional system. Your programming should be done or checked by whoever maintains the work radios.

 

[natedawg1604]

Apologies if this is not the right place to post this, but I was hoping to get some recommendations for Handheld and/or Mobile radio recommendations that we can give to our members as an alternative/addition to our department-issued Minitor Pagers. We have department-owned radios that are used for IS situations, but historically a number of our members have had personal radios as well. Unfortunately, we are in an area with no cellular coverage (otherwise we would be using the I Am Responding). Historically we have had success with Baofeng UV-82 and UV-9R, but a lot of the radios recently that members have purchased don't appear to be programmable for the frequencies we use (154-156 typically). I'm asking for recommendations for both handheld and mobile radios that do the following;

* Waterproof/Water-resistant
* Programmable in the 154-156 VHF range
* Dual Watch or reliable scan mode
* Programmable with free included software (or Chirp)

Is your agency on VHF conventional repeaters?

 

[nd5y]

You don't buy fire hose at Wal-Mart. You don't source turnout gear from Temu. You don't buy BA from a toy shop.

I think some of these volunteer departments do all that and more.
If they buy and program their own radios then they probably also make breathing apparatus from empty propane bottles. If they operate an ambulance they probably make their own reusable medical devices and cook up their own drugs becaue the real stuff is too expensive.

 

[AK_SAR]

I think some of these volunteer departments do all that and more.
If they buy and program their own radios then they probably also make breathing apparatus from empty propane bottles. If they operate an ambulance they probably make their own reusable medical devices and cook up their own drugs becaue the real stuff is too expensive.

You apparently don't get out of town too much? Snarky jokes about volunteer FD/EMS are all very funny.....right up until those volunteers save your rear end. In rural areas, particularly in the western states, volunteer Fire and EMS are often the only resources available for many miles/hours. Here in Alaska, only the largest cities like Anchorage and Fairbanks have fully funded, full time paid fire and EMS. Many good-sized towns (by Alaska standards), for example Homer, have volunteer FD/EMS with a small cadre of paid staff who are responsible for training. Smaller villages are virtually all volunteer and have very limited (if any) financial support.

The volunteer departments I'm familiar with work very hard to maintain standards of equipment and training. However, it is really tough to do that in tiny communities of a few 100 people or less. It's tough to buy a new radio system (let alone a new fire truck or ambulance) using funds from bake sales, but they do the best they can. But when people need help, these volunteers step up, and they generally do a good job.

 

[MTS2000des]

The volunteer departments I'm familiar with work very hard to maintain standards of equipment and training. However, it is really tough to do that in tiny communities of a few 100 people or less. It's tough to buy a new radio system (let alone a new fire truck or ambulance) using funds from bake sales, but they do the best they can. But when people need help, these volunteers step up, and they generally do a good job.

There is no excuse for any department using non-certified communications equipment in an IDLH setting. None. Analog VHF radios from quality manufacturers new and vetted, tested used stuff can be had for the asking. If an agency isn't reaching out and requesting any surplus or good condition demobilized subscribers and choosing to buy turd radios from China and use hobbyist grade crap to cobble something together, they don't care about their lives. It's as simple as that.

OSHA and civil courts don't really pay much to "we can't afford it" when someone dies and it gets in that full circus mode. I know first hand.
This isn't a game. Junk radios are fine for hams, whackers, GMRS et al. They have NO PLACE in an IDLH setting. None.

 

[AK_SAR]

There is no excuse for any department using non-certified communications equipment in an IDLH setting. None. Analog VHF radios from quality manufacturers new and vetted, tested used stuff can be had for the asking. If an agency isn't reaching out and requesting any surplus or good condition demobilized subscribers and choosing to buy turd radios from China and use hobbyist grade crap to cobble something together, they don't care about their lives. It's as simple as that.

OSHA and civil courts don't really pay much to "we can't afford it" when someone dies and it gets in that full circus mode. I know first hand.
This isn't a game. Junk radios are fine for hams, whackers, GMRS et al. They have NO PLACE in an IDLH setting. None.

Nowhere did I suggest they buy junk radios. I was responding to this quite snarky bull**** comment:
"If they buy and program their own radios then they probably also make breathing apparatus from empty propane bottles. If they operate an ambulance they probably make their own reusable medical devices and cook up their own drugs becaue the real stuff is too expensive."

 

[nd5y]

It's tough to buy a new radio system (let alone a new fire truck or ambulance) using funds from bake sales,

Is something preventing them from getting state or federal grants? I thought Alaska had enough oil money to pay every resident thousands of dollars every year. Can't they partially fund local emergency services?

 

[AK_SAR]

A discussion of Alaska state finances would lead us down a long contentious slide into politics, and I’m not going there. However, the short answer is “Yes” sometimes grants are available. For example many volunteer SAR teams in AK have Motorola HT1250s, acquired years ago with a grant. (But these are getting old and some have failed.)

However the needs are great, for lots of things besides radios, and grants are hard to get. Small village VFDs often don’t have the expertise in writing grant applications. Small volunteer FD/EMS teams often have to make do with gear surplused or donated from larger agencies.

But surplus or donated gear is often near the end of its useful lifespan. (There’s a reason it was surplused.) For example years ago some volunteer SAR teams were give old EF Johnson radios when state agencies upgraded to new radios. These worked OK for awhile, but many (most?) of them have died. One team I know of got a state surplused truck, only to have the engine totally fail not long after.

And this isn’t a problem just here in Alaska.

 

[natedawg1604]

A discussion of Alaska state finances would lead us down a long contentious slide into politics, and I’m not going there. However, the short answer is “Yes” sometimes grants are available. For example many volunteer SAR teams in AK have Motorola HT1250s, acquired years ago with a grant. (But these are getting old and some have failed.)

However the needs are great, for lots of things besides radios, and grants are hard to get. Small village VFDs often don’t have the expertise in writing grant applications. Small volunteer FD/EMS teams often have to make do with gear surplused or donated from larger agencies.

But surplus or donated gear is often near the end of its useful lifespan. (There’s a reason it was surplused.) For example years ago some volunteer SAR teams were give old EF Johnson radios when state agencies upgraded to new radios. These worked OK for awhile, but many (most?) of them have died. One team I know of got a state surplused truck, only to have the engine totally fail not long after.

And this isn’t a problem just here in Alaska.

Isn't Alaska on a statewide VHF P25 system? Do some SAR teams not use that?

 

[buddrousa]

The OP hung around for 5 hours and not been back.

 

[MTS2000des]

But surplus or donated gear is often near the end of its useful lifespan. (There’s a reason it was surplused.) For example years ago some volunteer SAR teams were give old EF Johnson radios when state agencies upgraded to new radios. These worked OK for awhile, but many (most?) of them have died. One team I know of got a state surplused truck, only to have the engine totally fail not long after.

And this isn’t a problem just here in Alaska.

I hear you. It is also regional. My agency gave away 400 XTS and XTL portables to a nearby county who were borrowing parts from radio carcasses to keep 25 year old MTS2000's alive until this agency could secure funding for new subscribers. Building relationships with mutual aid groups is key to getting needs out there, including grant writing.

On the other hand, where I draw the line is where unqualified, unskilled and often incompetent people start taking on the task of programming subscriber radios for public safety use. When one starts wanting to use hobbyist grade stuff like Chirp and Bowelturds, they aren't only risking fielding a crap radio, their programming errors combined with inferior equipment can generate interference to others well beyond the scope of a single user.

 

[AK_SAR]

Isn't Alaska on a statewide VHF P25 system? Do some SAR teams not use that?

Yes, AK has a P25 system, called ALMR (Alaska Land Mobile Radio). However, to call it "statewide" is a bit of a stretch. Basically it only covers the main highways in the most populated areas of the state. See the map at: https://alaskalandmobileradio.org/system-coverage/ (Note that map only shows an idealized coverage radius around the repeaters, not actual coverage due to terrain.) Volunteer SAR has some limited access to that system (but not the encrypted LE talk groups). Our team has been issued four state owned XTS-1500 radios which can work on ALMR.

We sometimes use them, but overall haven't used ALMR nearly as much as one might expect for SAR missions. The first problem is that the ALMR repeaters are optimized to cover the road network, not the side country or back country adjacent to the roads. So, for wilderness SAR, ALMR coverage is often lacking. Secondly, we only have 4 of those radios. On a typical mission we might have 4-5 Strike Teams deployed in the field, and we also need radios for some of the IMT, so typically we would need a bare minimum of 7-8 radios. Ideally, for safety reasons, we like to have every team member carry a radio, so really we need more than that. As a consequence, most of the time we are operating on analog, either simplex or using a portable analog repeater. I should mention that the state is upgrading the ALMR system, and I'm told that in another year or so our XTS-1500s will no longer work on ALMR. So sometime in the next few years we will need to replace both our HT-1250s due to age, and our XTS-1500s since they won't work on the upgraded ALMR system.

My experience is mostly with wilderness SAR. We each provide our own personal gear out of our own pockets, but struggle with funds for team gear. But compared to a village volunteer fire department our needs are fairly modest (radios, rescue toboggans, medical gear, tents etc). Village VFDs and EMS have a much bigger problem. What does a fire truck or ambulance cost these days? Getting state or federal grants is not a trivial task, and the more money you ask for, the more difficult it is to get that grant!

 

[K6GBW]

Sounds like ALMR is going P25 or trunked? In that case you'll be dependant on what they give you. If they require you buy your own radios you'll need to get the technical specs from them before you do anything else. If you are looking for radios just for "inter-team" then any decent radio will work. Many departments in the Northeast still use VHF Lo-Band to dispatch and they have the radios on the vehicles. Once on-scene they generally use VHF handhelds for "fireground" around the scene only. Maybe you can do something similar by having only a few of the ALMR system radios and use simplex VHF among your team? If that's what you need then you can find good used Motorola gear on eBay from some reputable sellers. Also consider Kenwoods.

 

[speedway_navigator]

It's sad to see response levels of public safety dictated by the property taxes generated by what we call NAV in Indiana, net assessed value.
Our county is urban in the east half and rural in the west. Some of the VFDs have managed to fund EMTs on day shift for runs, only 1 town with about 250 homes is still all volunteer, but they have a 100% response rate.

This reminds me of the joke about a major oil well fire where the oil company called in a major fire fighting contractor who failed to extinguish it.
The company called on the local VFD as a last resort. They responded emergent, zipped right past the safety zone barriers. bailed out of the truck and put out the fire.

The oil company president was so impressed he gave them a huge check and asked the chief what he was going to spend it on.

"New brakes for the truck" was his reply.

 

[ecrespol]

Again as I mentioned we have radios for fire scenes that are rated for that purpose, what we lack are enough properly functioning notification equipment. There aren't enough pagers for all of our members (and some of those don't work properly) and there isn't a budget to buy anything else (we spend what little we have on hoses). All I was asking was for recommendations for inexpensive reliable radios we could recommend to our members who wish to purchase their own, but according to this group, it's better to just listen for the siren.

 

[mmckenna]

it's better to just listen for the siren.

There's a number of challenges, and unfortunately buying $14 Chinese radios isn't the answer.

Sounds like you just need more pagers. I'd focus there. Find a vendor that will program and sell pagers. Send your members there to get an appropriate and legal device. I'd not risk overcomplicating this with trying to buy transceivers. Without proper programming, they are not going to alert on pages, its just too easy for an inexperienced person to mess up the programming.

And, you do have to remember the FCC license for the agency does come with requirements that must be met. It's not hard to do, but again, $14 Chinese radios isn't the answer.