HF antenna - longwires

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ILSAPP

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Hello all,

I've just found this pic on Google images and wonder if anybody has already tried this kind of setup with two longwires at right angles.
I'm interested in improving my HF reception from 4 to 18MHz without spend much money for a decent performer antenna. I live in a rural area and have a 12m spiderbeam pole available.


Many thanks
 

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ka3jjz

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I'm a bit sanguine on this. There's too much possibility here of mutual coupling between each of the 2 antennas. Are you attempting to build something for diversity reception? Combining antennas is something of a tricky business - you might end up with a better signal, or if the signals are out of phase with one another, you could cancel them out, or might not see any improvement at all.

If not, making 2 of these - one for each antenna - is very likely a better way to go, particularly if you wish to electrically isolate one from the other, at least at the feedline. Now switching between the two - that's a horse of another color...

Improving your HF reception using 2 antennas is a good idea, but they don't always have to be the same type. In fact there may be some advantages to having different types of antennas for different directions, assuming you have the space. Just how much space are we talking here? Any trees or other ready structures to use for hanging wires? Any power or phone lines nearby? No big power poles, etc.?

I'd highly recommend getting some books like the ARRL Antenna Handbook, or any of the fine wire antenna books by Joe Carr or Joe Buch. They have a lot of information there that can get you thinking in a given direction.

Mike
 
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prcguy

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What you will end up with is basically a 197ft long inverted V laying on its side with a balun transformer at the feedpoint. I don't think there is anything magic about that.

Hello all,

I've just found this pic on Google images and wonder if anybody has already tried this kind of setup with two longwires at right angles.
I'm interested in improving my HF reception from 4 to 18MHz without spend much money for a decent performer antenna. I live in a rural area and have a 12m spiderbeam pole available.


Many thanks
 

majoco

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It will need a tuner as well.

Would you like to expand on this bold statement?

It has a wideband matching transformer of sorts and a tuner at the bottom of a long piece of coax does nothing other act as a bandpass filter. Now if you put a few turns of the coax around a bit of PVC pipe up at the top as a braid breaker that might improve thing a bit but not much for a receiver.
 

prcguy

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The transformer pictured in post 1 appears to be a 9:1, having a four turn primary and 12 turn secondary. No ferrite type is indicated, which could lead to a disaster. The ferrite mix is very important to how the transformer works.

This antenna would be much better over a broad frequency range by not using the transformer at the antenna and using 450 ohm ladder line all the way to the receiver then a 1:1 choke balun at the receiver. This would eliminate the additional and inevitable coax loss due to the coax operating under extreme mismatch conditions.

And when its all said and done I still don't see anything magic about it.
 

nanZor

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Hi ILSAPP

I ran this through EZnec from varying heights of 15 to 60 feet above ground, and generally, below 10 mhz, the antenna pattern is more or less spherical - that is high-angle general coverage skywave. Probably not what you want unless you are only interested in very local contacts within the high-skip angles.

Above 10mhz, it is still an omni, but is broken into very many little lobes. Some *might* be useful, but overall I think you would be disappointed looking for a "good performer".

When I ran it through EZnec, that is assuming a perfectly isolated feedline. If that feedine is not properly choked off, then the common-mode of the coax (outside surface of braid facing the common universe) becomes part of the antenna, and may serve more as a very funky inverted / top-loaded L vertical.

Knowing this, I say put it up and live with it for a week. Then change the pattern by bringing the legs down close to earth, ala a "sloping" version.

Better yet, save time, money, and energy and fire up EZnec. It is so handy to know what you may be getting into before starting a project. The ARRL has a good beginner's book on how to get started, and this would be simple enough to chew on.

Hint: one can quickly emulate the common-mode of a coax shield "third wire" by adding a 3rd wire to your antenna, and can also simulate a choking impedance, like a simple ferrite sleeve choke by putting in say a 3K ohm resistive load up near the feed point on that 3rd wire. Try it with the "3rd wire" (the coax braid) touching the earth, or just 1 inch above the earth to simulate a floating version.

But generally, I think either the project author's needs were met by the normally undesirable pattern, OR the way they got around to feeding it filled in a lot of the strange nulls generated by the antenna elements alone.
 
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kk4obi

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There is no East or West directional effect like you are hoping. This is a 120 meter long diagonal dipole bent into an L form. There is no gain from the L. Actually there is some reduction in signal strength according to this antenna modeling link:

Center-fed Lateral V-dipoles

The harmonics are useful. 2nd on 30 meters. 3rd on 20 meters. 4th on 20m. 5th on 12 m. 6th on 10 m. 8th on 7.5 m. 10th on 6m. The catch is that harmonics act as dipoles end-to-end. Each dipole has a hot spot with two lobes and two nulls. On 20 meters there are 6 lobes and 6 nulls. It gets ridiculous as you tune higher. On 10 meters there are 12 lobes and 12 nulls.

You can see pictures of the radiation patterns vs harmonics in this study.
EFHW Straight
 

ILSAPP

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Many thanks for all of your input and comments, really appreciated. Much things to learn and digest.
So seems that it's not a good antenna candidate for me. I'll keep looking in some other options and guess it's time to invest some time in the excellent EZNEC software.
Again, a big thank you for all of you!
 

K5MPH

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The transformer pictured in post 1 appears to be a 9:1, having a four turn primary and 12 turn secondary. No ferrite type is indicated, which could lead to a disaster. The ferrite mix is very important to how the transformer works.

This antenna would be much better over a broad frequency range by not using the transformer at the antenna and using 450 ohm ladder line all the way to the receiver then a 1:1 choke balun at the receiver. This would eliminate the additional and inevitable coax loss due to the coax operating under extreme mismatch conditions.

And when its all said and done I still don't see anything magic about it.
What core type do you think it might be.....
 

prcguy

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I think a 61 mix ferrite would be a good start. You can make two identical transformers, connect them back to back and measure insertion loss and VSWR across the entire HF band to see if the mix is right. The picture shows a red core and some powdered iron cores are acceptable for a 9:1 and are generally red in color.


What core type do you think it might be.....
 
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