I want radios

[zerowatts]

It seems there is no company around me that will allow me to pay for radio service without purchasing 'their' equipment. I want radios, I will pay for service. But I will NOT pay $950 for the lowest featured model from Moto, when I can buy that same radio everywhere on the web new & used from $75-$229.

I want my own repeater, an antenna on the rooftop of my building then use my own radios. FCC license is needed, is it really as hard as the licensing solution website say it is? Do I need them or is it simply a matter of form 601 and the tower registration?

I have radios sitting in the vehicles that would likely need reprogrammed or crystallized to the frequency/s the FCC might allow me to use. Where do I begin on my own? I really don't trust the radio vendor anymore, but cellular is not the ideal option it is too slow and unreliable. When my 'dispatchers' need to speak with a driver it is right now, not 45 seconds down the road, if the battery is charged, the phone is not on vibrate, the driver is not on another call etc....

 

[RRSINC]

Where are you located? I am in the Boston area and can help you out.

 

[zerowatts]

I am in Ohio. Are radio dealers the same way in Boston? Don't get me wrong it could just be the regional salesman I have, but he did tell me I could only bring "a few, max" of my own radios. I have 8 radios now, ready to be used. To purchase 8 from them I am looking at nearly $7200. It just seems so shady. They claim to offer service, that is what I want - not sales.

I am even willing to pay on a per radio basis. Just so frustrated with them.

 

[RRSINC]

So let me see if I can follow you.

You are looking for repeater service that you can put your radios on in order to get wide area coverage? correct? but the radio shop that owns the repeater is saying you have to buy from them to go on to their system?

So your feeling is rather then do buy radios from them you don't need because you already have radios then you just rather put up your own repeater. I am correct so far?

 

[zerowatts]

That is all correct, yes.

 

[RRSINC]

ok now I that I have a better idea of what your trying to do I can say that in the Boston area most radio shops have some type of radio systems up for wide area coverage. The majority of the time they are LTR Trunking systems or more recently we are seeing nexedge and mototrbo systems going up. Rates vary widely from $15/radio - $45/radio per month. There are a few conventional community repeaters but they are rare to find as their not really a practical solution if you have a large number of radios and customers on them.

I am not sure what you have for radios but if they are conventional and the dealer has an LTR system they would not be compatible and would be why they want you to buy new radios.

As far as getting your own frequency and repeater, it should not be a problem. Really depends on how saturated the airwaves are in your area. I know in Boston to find a good clean repeater pair is almost impossible.

To license your own channel you typically would go through a dealer who will charge you between $500 - $1000 for a 10 year license depending on who they use for a coordinator.

If you have your own repeater you need to have a good site, which can often cost more then paying a radio shop for their service. The higher the site the further the signal is going to travel, obviously there are many other factors but my point is if you’re on top of a 3 story apartment building vs. a 30 story sky scraper you going to see a big difference in coverage.

You always have to worry about maintaining the repeater and what do you do if it goes down. When you pay a radio shop they maintain it and usually have a backup system in case of failure. Additionally they typically hold liability insurance which is usually required when going on top of someone else’s building or tower.

Hope that helps, if I can be of any further assistance let me know
.

 

[zerowatts]

We were originally looking at the MotoTrbo system. It is our first venture into the radio world, we asked if we could step it down to analog to start. That is what baffles me, the analog (which is the bulk of their business) costs the same as the digital! That is why we are so irritated.

I can certainly see why so many businesses simply add a line to VZW accounts at $10 a month these days.

Edit** Analog Equipment costing the same on the quote is what I meant. As far as towers and service digital was quoted as $16 per radio across all towers vs $13 per radio x 6 towers. The number of towers is the indicating coverage range needed though - we only need about a 20-30 mile radius.

 

[zerowatts]

Should I call him back and tell him I would like to start with the FCC license, and tell him we will talk equipment later?

 

[duchee]

i think that would be a good idea. hey Zero. what are you going to use them for?

 

[zerowatts]

Transportation, I don't want to get too detailed as this site seems to be THE resource, and I am sure the person I am so disappointed with reads it (or at least the boss does). The vendor deals with practically everyone who has a radio around here. They have like 8 towers blanketing practically the entire SW corner of the state. I just don't wanna burn the bridge 100% just yet. Trying to explore options.

This is why I ask if it is typical of radio vendors to say or do this when they offer both Analog and Digital. If it is typical, we will see what we can do on our own. If it is not typical, I would may consider calling his boss and asking if we can bring our own radios. It just seems a shame when we have a near turn key system now, all we need is the service provider (I know the order is tall, but they do specialize in it and local businesses use them for service alone). I do like the sexy MotoTrbo, and would like to migrate as finances become available, but I can not afford to splurge and purchase an entirely new line of equipment for all units.

 

[danielwoodie]

I am sorry to hear you are having difficulty with a radio supplier in Southwestern Ohio. I used to work for a radio shop in Cincinnati and I think I know which company you have been dealing with. We had a lot of customers come to our shop after receiving poor service and/or being over-charged.

Second, I would suggest against using MotoTRBO. It is by far the worst digital format currently available. The audio quality is terrible and becomes completely unintelligible with any background noise. P25 digital is OK but entry level P25 radios are $1000+ each. If you want to have digital radios your best option is NXDN - Also known as Kenwood's Nexedge or Icom's IDAS. These radios are also analog and LTR trunking capable giving you many options. The audio quality outperforms all other digital formats available. I would suggest the Kenwood NX-300 UHF portables and Kenwood NX-800 UHF Mobiles. They are not the cheapest radios but they should be less than the MotoTRBO radios.

Comparisons of the digital formats are below:

Nexedge : http://www.w2sjw.com/sounds/NXDN_multi.mp3
MotoTRBO: http://www.w2sjw.com/sounds/mototrbo-decoded.mp3

As you can hear, the MotoTRBO radio sounds terrible even in Analog mode while the Kenwood Nexedge radio sounds natural and clear in both analog and digital modes. It becomes even more apparent with background noise. I know of several major companies who have already dropped MotoTRBO and gone to NXDN or back to Analog because of the poor performance.

Remember, when you buy radios on ebay they usually do not include proper programming, alignment, FCC Checks, and SUPPORT. When you buy from a radio shop you receive all of these.

As far as repeaters go, unless you are operating within a 5 mile radius area you may have trouble getting licensed for a repeater to cover your service area. It might be a better idea to sign up with a radio shop's LTR Trunk system. You might have better luck getting your own high-profile repeater licensed if you run full-digital 6.25 KHz on a 6.25 KHz channel. Keep in mind - the cheapest digital repeater - the Kenwood NXR-810 - is going to cost at least $3000 with all of the duplexers, power supply, filters, feedline, and antenna. A higher-power repeater could be $10,000+. This still only gives you 1 channel to talk on. If you set it up as a trunk system it will cost $10,000+ per trunked channel. By comparison most radio shops charge <$20 per radio per month for LTR Trunking.

As far as not being able to use your existing radios, the only way this would be is if they are not compatible with the new system (If they are not LTR capable) or if they are not Narrow-Band compliant (12.5 KHz spacing is mandatory in the US as of January 2013)

If you are near Cincinnati or Dayton areas you can contact my previous employer - Advanced Radio Technology. They are dealers for Kenwood, Icom, Vertex, and Harris. They have UHF LTR Trunk systems covering Cincinnati, Dayton, and Northern Kentucky. Scott Price is the contact - (513)-489-5575 - he will walk you through the steps to accomplish what you want at an affordable price. Their techs are very good and service is quick. I would still be working there if I had not received a much better offer in Chicago.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions let me know.

Dan

 

[RadioDSPjunkie]

@zerowatts

Have you considered using an iDEN service provider instead like boost or nextel?
I don't know if they have good coverage there, but that could give you started with fixed costs at $30 per month for PTT radio use only. You can get iDEN handsets for cheap from $10 bucks each to $25.
My favorite is a little more ruggedized i305 -- I have abused these radios over the years and they still keep working!

Another alternative is a Smartrunk II system if you have your own towers. It uses channel idle scanning method and does not require a special license like LTR with a dedicated control channel. With logic boards, you can even use older and inexpensive radios like from ICOM and Vertex/Yaesu. I retrofitted the old Motorola GP300's and it works! It has AVL capability, text messaging, emergency broadcast, private/group calls, etc.

Just trying to help you with options.

JM

 

[W2NJS]

For some reason or other, I and several other people in the DC area are doing fine with TRBO digital in our area, including both direct and repeater operations. Same goes for a whole slew of guys on the West Coast and in the NYC area. The TRBO digital has never sounded as crappy as the W2SJW example. I don't think that TRBO deserves the broad, "It's no good" slap that it got in this post. It has a lot more features than P25, to start with, and to my old ears it's always sounded fine. Packet loss and funny audio can and does occur with any digital system but that's no reason to call it useless.

 

[iamhere300]

It seems there is no company around me that will allow me to pay for radio service without purchasing 'their' equipment. I want radios, I will pay for service. But I will NOT pay $950 for the lowest featured model from Moto, when I can buy that same radio everywhere on the web new & used from $75-$229.

I want my own repeater, an antenna on the rooftop of my building then use my own radios. FCC license is needed, is it really as hard as the licensing solution website say it is? Do I need them or is it simply a matter of form 601 and the tower registration?

I have radios sitting in the vehicles that would likely need reprogrammed or crystallized to the frequency/s the FCC might allow me to use. Where do I begin on my own? I really don't trust the radio vendor anymore, but cellular is not the ideal option it is too slow and unreliable. When my 'dispatchers' need to speak with a driver it is right now, not 45 seconds down the road, if the battery is charged, the phone is not on vibrate, the driver is not on another call etc....

Lets look at a number of issues.

1. Your old radios. Are they capable of narrowbanding? If they need crystals, they are not, and will have to be replaced before 2013. Much of the older programmable stuff is the same way.

2. Licensing. You have to have your frequencies coordinated - no way around it - through an FCC frequency coordinator. I use FITS for commercial work. Around 300 bucks. Then it is submitted to
the FCC with the appropiate fee to them.

3. Will your rooftop provide good enough coverage?

If all you are needing is 25 miles or so, a community repeater is certainly a viable option - and it works well. Not as many of them out there as there used to be though. Drop me an email at bbowers@mozarks.com and I can try to help you if you can give me more location than "ohio". For
instance, if you are around Blanchester, I know of a heck of a deal you could take advantage of.

Whoever does your licensing will have to know if you are going to remain analog, or go with Trbo, or IDAS/NXDN in order to license you. TRBO works well, as does IDAS and NXDN. With IDAS and NXDN you have lots more options on whose equipment to use, where with TRBO you only have two manufacturers you can use. Analog works well also.

 

[tonypl056]

Awsome write there bbowers!!! lots of good info here.. it is true he is going to go through alot of B/s
as we put it trying to get set up. he might want to look into Nextel or something until he gets settled..
new narrowband radios are not cheap and with everything going digital the expense will deepen plus the licening costs now your into it for big bucks... just food for thought, i use many different radios different bands and i have nextel as a back up,it has never failed me.. i guess he needs to assess
what is "cost effective",,

Cheers!!!

 

[N4DES]

Should I call him back and tell him I would like to start with the FCC license, and tell him we will talk equipment later?

You can go to any of the coordinators direct and by-pass him and his mark-up.
I did a repeater and simplex for my HOA a few years back and it was less than $300.00 for the 10 year license. I used PCIA for this Frequency Coordination, but this is not an endorsement for the company.

The FCC has others listed as well:

FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Licensing: Frequency Coordinators