I have been mostly inactive with respect to amateur radio for a number of years and playing a bit of catch up now. A local repeater came up on my SDS-100 scanner. I heard a voice conversation with exceptionally high quality audio on a UHF repeater. The SDS-100 indicated it was a DMR signal and it was mentioned in the conversation that they were on one of many apparent DMS channels I saw when I Googled the repeater output frequency. My Icom ID-52 only provided the buzz of a data signal, not unexpectedly, on the repeater output frequency, that clearly corresponded with the voice audio I was hearing on the SDS-100. So, am I correct to understand my megabuck ID-52 is compatible with the Icom D-Star system and cannot be used with a DMR repeater? I have many other questions but I am so unfamiliar with these modes that I do not yet know what I don’t know so not sure what else to ask. Nevertheless, my initial question is if I am truly SOL with respect to using the ID-52 with a DMR system?
Icom: Icom ID-52 and DMR
- Thread starter N4IFE
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Correct. D-Star ≠ DMR
Two completely different digital modes. Your ID-52 is not going to decode DMR.
Amateur radio has changed a lot in the last few years. There's more digital repeaters. The challenge is, there's several digital modes in use, and none of them are compatible. You have to buy into whatever digital mode the repeater you want to use is using.
D-Star
System Fusion
DMR
P25
NXDN
What is popular in your area will vary. There is no standard amateur radio digital mode, unfortunately.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
And since this is amateur radio, and someone will want to start an argument:
Sure, you could hack open your radio, tap off the discriminator, feed that to an external computer, run a program to decode DMR, and prove me wrong by making their D-Star radio decode DMR with a bunch of external stuff.
But I think you understand what I'm saying...
I understand exactly what you’re saying and it was not at all unexpected. Best I can tell the Icom D-Star system never gained traction and it does not look like it is going to. It is more than disappointing to have spent as much as I did for the ID-52 and not have DMR compatibility as my initial dive into this today makes it appear that DMR is predominating. I have predominately used Icom gear since my first IC-25 in 1982 but I think I will not be so fast to use Icom for whatever toy I get next. Thanks for the quick reply.
You can also use a hotspot/openspot that'll allow you to cross-mode from D-Star over to one of the other digital formats such as C4FM, DMR, etc. Take a peek: Amateur Radio Notes: Hotspots
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MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Yep, use my D-Star radios to cross mode all day long to YSF, using my OpenSpot 4 Pro.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
There's a lot going on….
Some of it is 'brand loyalty' and the brand loyalists will fight to the death over their chosen digital mode. Their chosen mode is the best, all others suck.
And then you have the clubs. The ham clubs fight it out and decide on the 'best' digital mode. Then everyone in the club (if they want to be "in with the in crowd", whatever that is) has to buy into that chosen digital mode.
Then there are those that have all the digital modes. "Can't be a real ham unless you use XYZ digital mode on every band". Most hobbyists don't have the money for that.
Don't leave out the "when all else fails" guys that have to have an $8,000 Motorola radio that does P25 Phase 2, just in case they need to run net control on the local public safety systems.
Either way, it often turns into an argument. It's a helluva fun thing to sit and watch from the stands. People will argue the hell out of it over and over until a moderator gives up on policing it and locks the thread. I sit back with my analog radios and am happy.
I keep hoping that hams will eventually kill each other off and there will be one digital mode to rule them all. Maybe then I'll buy a digital radio.
And, yeah, the hotspots. That's another one I'm not going to touch. While it'll work, you get tethered to a box.
Before you blow money on a new radio. Get one of the SDR cheap-o radios on a chip and use your computer to see if there is actually anything worth listening to. No point in buying a new digital radio just to listen to a bunch of old guys talk about their last colonoscopy or current state of their bunions.
"..megabuck ID-52..."
Stay far, far away from P-25 mode then. Megabuck there is approaching 5 digits for an APX8000 tribander,
Stay far, far away from P-25 mode then. Megabuck there is approaching 5 digits for an APX8000 tribander,
I wish someone would clear out some of these proprietary modes. Amateur radio does itself a disservice when there are so many digital modes that are based solely on manufacturer loyalty and regional preferences.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No worries. I am just not active enough on any mode or any band for any of this to matter. I miss the 1980s and 1990s when there was almost always chatting on the local repeaters but now there are still a lot of repeaters but rarely any chat. I had a lot of time to kill today so was letting my little used scanner do its thing when it stopped on a UHF DMR QSO. Since I had a curiosity about the digital modes for a while it got my attention as I thought, obviously incorrectly and without much thought, the current digital modes were just something packet radio had evolved into. I was surprised when I heard the digital buzz on my ht. I have noticed some of the local repeaters frequently buzz with digital signals so I am now wondering if that represents the chat seemingly now long gone.
It absolutely does. A lot of hams have gone to the various digital modes. You can talk worldwide using the various digital networks, which is a draw for a lot of people. Of course, it's worldwide via internet linking, but worldwide nonetheless. A lot of people also use digital hotspots, so they no longer have to rely on a repeater. You are basically using your own mini-repeater in your house to connect to the various digital networks.
paulears
Member
What made me surprised in your first post was the concept of exceptional audio quality. Part of my work is comms and the other video and audio recording. Digital comms quality has always annoyed me intensely. The low bit rate and resolution, plus the change to the voice, adding that robotic flavour is sort of the thing everyone is trying to get rid of in the pro audio community. The other thing that really surprises me is nobody in comms ever comments on the awful latency - sometimes close to half a second, but normally a bit less than that. This can cause sync issues in TV/radio when you're doing countdowns, cueing, or pressing buttons. Imagine the guys with fingers on the button, waiting for the magic word 'GO', and some are using digital radio, some analogue comms and some a direct path from mouth to their ears. 5,4,3,2,1, GO - and one of them is late. Worst example are often music based. A musician's monitor system fails and they try to bodge it with a couple of DMR walkie-talkies. The muso has an earpiece, and at the other end they are squirting a click into the mic socket of another radio. He is taking his metronome click which he plays to and doesn't realise every thing he plays is late!
riflemin
Member
I got into amateur radio in the 70's when I stumbled across 2-meter conversations just above the VHF Aviation Comm band (on a tuneable GE receiver). One benefit that hooked me was the ability to make "Autopatch" phone calls on the local repeater (and back then everyone was courteous about it). For many years I didn't even need a radio with CTCSS because most repeaters were open. Simple!
I was just telling a retired electronic tech about how easy it is to get into ham radio but it pained me to tell him that with all the available modes and frequencies it's often hard to make a contact (except during the morning and evening commute hours). I think it is exactly because there are too many choices. But it's like Windows vs Mac vs Linux, or Iphone vs Andriod. But ham radio is already a relatively small community so it doesn't help when we divide into specialized groups (some would say cliques).
More than a decade ago the local radio club put up two D-Star repeaters (2m & 440). I contributed and bought an IC-880 and IC-80D. Unfortunately, the repeater was not in an ideal location and was generally inaccessible for most users so it got little use as far as I could tell. And when I drove across the US I couldn't drum up a contact on any D-star repeater. The local club eventually took the D-star repeaters down and sold them. I feel like I wasted money on the whole thing with little to show for it.
Why are there so many standards which are incompatible? Free market competition. Each standard has pros and cons, and each manufacturer has to engineer their products to avoid infringing on competitors patents.
I have three Icom D-Star radios that I only use on FM so I understand the OP's frustration. I also have two Yaesu Fusion radios that might be able drum up a contact on a local YSF repeater. I have several inexpensive chinese DMR radios of various brands I don't have internet at home so I don't do the dongles but the OP might consider that route. There are dongles that can operate multiple modes.
If it hadn't been for the cheap Chinese DMR radios I sure wouldn't have tried it out. But my main frustration with DMR is the programming. And at least with D-Star and Fusion your call sign is programmed and sent as is without the need for contact lists.
All things considered, Yaesu Fusion works best for me. Just my 2 cents. 73
I was just telling a retired electronic tech about how easy it is to get into ham radio but it pained me to tell him that with all the available modes and frequencies it's often hard to make a contact (except during the morning and evening commute hours). I think it is exactly because there are too many choices. But it's like Windows vs Mac vs Linux, or Iphone vs Andriod. But ham radio is already a relatively small community so it doesn't help when we divide into specialized groups (some would say cliques).
More than a decade ago the local radio club put up two D-Star repeaters (2m & 440). I contributed and bought an IC-880 and IC-80D. Unfortunately, the repeater was not in an ideal location and was generally inaccessible for most users so it got little use as far as I could tell. And when I drove across the US I couldn't drum up a contact on any D-star repeater. The local club eventually took the D-star repeaters down and sold them. I feel like I wasted money on the whole thing with little to show for it.
Why are there so many standards which are incompatible? Free market competition. Each standard has pros and cons, and each manufacturer has to engineer their products to avoid infringing on competitors patents.
I have three Icom D-Star radios that I only use on FM so I understand the OP's frustration. I also have two Yaesu Fusion radios that might be able drum up a contact on a local YSF repeater. I have several inexpensive chinese DMR radios of various brands I don't have internet at home so I don't do the dongles but the OP might consider that route. There are dongles that can operate multiple modes.
If it hadn't been for the cheap Chinese DMR radios I sure wouldn't have tried it out. But my main frustration with DMR is the programming. And at least with D-Star and Fusion your call sign is programmed and sent as is without the need for contact lists.
All things considered, Yaesu Fusion works best for me. Just my 2 cents. 73
I appreciate all the good feedback above. It is an eye opener as I just did not give the digital modes enough thought to even barely scratch the surface. Over the next few weeks I am going to use the SDS100 to monitor the repeaters I frequently hear buzzing with the obviously digital signals on my base rigs to identify the mode and see if they are voice QSOs. I hope I am not opening a Pandora’s box for myself if I discover a new world that piques my interest. Talking to someone directly over hf, vhf, uhf, etc. does indeed interest me but needing to use an internet connection somehow takes away the magic for me.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Megabuck? Maybe for the current in production P25 subscribers.
Surplus XTS/XTL radios are well under $300 for a MP XTL, if you're paying more you're getting ripped off.
XTS5000s model 2/3s in VHF/UHF should be sub $300. They blow away amateur gear for quality, performance, and durability. Accessories are cheap and plentiful.
Quantars sell for less than a new D-Star or YSF repeaters and again, miles above ham gear for performance. They, unlike ham toys, refuse to die. I paid less than $800 for my VHF Quantar. That was 5 years ago.
P25 being expensive is a myth. Sure it takes some skill and ability to program and get setup, but isn't that what ham radio is about? No Bowelturds with low muffled audio on P25 either.
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Go Kenwood -- Their NX-5000 Series. You'll get P25, NXDN, and DMR all in 1 mono band package. However you can only use 2 digital modes at a time.
If hams new how much cost effective gear was sitting out there on the cost effective market...
P-25 is expensive if you want new. There are well heeled people with new APX8000s running among us and at hamfests. I was making a point that if someone thought their Icom portable was expensive, there are people who demand Mother M's latest miracle in a box.
New DMR portable/mobile from Mother M ain't inexpensive either.
New DMR portable/mobile from Mother M ain't inexpensive either.
k6cpo
Member
Something I have noticed about ham radio in the 12 or so years that I have been licensed is that in many instances, cost is the primary driving factor in equipment purchases, without regard to how difficult the device is to operate. The only reason DMR is more popular than D-Star or Yaesu System Fusion is the cost of the radios. YSF is infinitely simpler in implementation than either DMR or D-Star, but the influx of reasonably good quality (for the Chinese) inexpensive DMR radios has increased the popularity immensely.
DMR is ham radio's take on a system designed for commercial applications. The CPS software is confusing and difficult to use, even for someone with lots of radio programming experience. If someone like me has trouble with it, I can just imagine how it is for a new ham. On the other hand, YSF is nothing more than programming your radio in the same manner as you would for an analog radio. Once that's done, you can switch back and forth between digital and analog witht just the push of a button, rather than having to switch the radio to a completely different memory channel. Easy peasy... (I've never used D-Star so I can't speak to its difficulty, but evrything I have seen indicates it's almost as bad as DMR.)
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