Identical sites in multiple trunked systems in the database

[ibagli]

This could be a question better posed in the Missouri forum, but it looks like more of a database organization issue, because IMO it looks pretty likely that the systems are actually two branches of the same thing. In any case, I'm planning a trip to the St. Louis area in a few weeks, and I noticed that all six sites of the St. Louis City / Lambert Airport system are exactly duplicated in the MOSWIN system. Same system ID, same RFSS, same site numbers, same frequencies. And on further inspection, there's a group of interoperability talkgroups that are identical in both systems.

Is this because:

• This is actually one system (even if some sites are maintained by a local jurisdiction and some by the state, like in the Ohio MARCS-IP system), and it should be combined in the database. (The common system ID of 1CE and common interoperability talkgroup IDs make me think this is probably the case. So does the note on the St. Louis system page to "See the MOSWIN Page for other sites not directly affiliated with the St Louis Regional System (VHF Sites)."). Or,
• The sites are incorrectly duplicated in one system or the other, and the system ID and common talkgroups are a coincidence (or for a future connection, not yet in place). Or,
• Something else entirely?

Whatever it is, I'm not seeing how duplicating the sites across multiple parts of the database is helping.

Edit: The entries for some of the St. Louis City sites show neighbors from MOSWIN (example), so I'm definitely thinking this should really be one system.

 

[INDY72]

If it has same SysID, and neighbor lists, and other things.... It is one system. Same SysID means it shares one core, therefore is one system. Looks like the MO admins need to tidy it up and show it as such. Even if an system has sites that are say, multiple counties away from each other, if they share that core and broadcast the same ID they are part of that one system. An big example would be an certain TRS in GA,.. It has sites in two separate counties that do not border each other, but it is one system. then look at the US Fed/Mil systems, and the CARN.... Some of those systems have sites that are in separate states not even near one another. but, one core, one ID, one system. Look also at the Palmetto P25 in SC.... Even if an part of the system has ownership on paper saying its blah blah yadda... It is the information being broadcast that identifies it as one ore more systems. This also reminds me of the birth of the TACN... Its original system was the TVRCS, which then was added to, and grown out until the now almost finished statewide TACN. Yes, the original sub system still is on paper the TVRCS, and even has an board of governors etc... But, it is now, just an part of the whole system.

 

[wa8pyr]

I'll discuss this with the MO admins.

 

[Jay911]

If it has same SysID, and neighbor lists, and other things.... It is one system. Same SysID means it shares one core, therefore is one system.

Can we please make this more widely known & understood by the DB admins & management?

I tilted that particular windmill several times a few years ago for two different systems, and had insistences from the admins that I was wrong. The excuses I got were "it's for the fire department, it's separate from the (statewide) system", "it's a different frequency band than the other sites, it's not part of the same system", "it's got a different RFSS, it's not the same system", "it's in a different country/on a different continent than the other sites, it's not the same system".

If the WACN and SID match, it's the same system. I don't care if the other sites are on Mars and are in the 2GHz range.

The only exception I know of is three disparate systems that all share the WACN 0000A and SID 00A. They are, in order of establishment, Provincial Public Safety Telecommunications Network Trunking System, Provincewide, Saskatchewan - Scanner Frequencies, U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies, and Société de Transport de Montréal: STM Trunking System, Montréal, Quebec - Scanner Frequencies. They're quite obviously not part of the same network, so there's no explanation as to what's up here. Maybe the system builders aren't in communication with each other and are errantly re-using the same IDs. Maybe the people monitoring these systems are errantly reporting the DOE system or the Quebec system. (I've personally monitored the SK system and I know it's 0000A-00A.)

The big US DoD system 14C is one giant worldwide system, including the parts overseas. The Quebec RENIR system and the Montreal Fire system are one system (14F), even if they are "administered" separately.

I would like to see RR establish some kind of check to see if WACN and SID are the same, and if so, generate a warning to the admin putting the data in.

 

[INDY72]

WACN's only matter in Motorola, EFJ, Tait, EADS/Cassadian's... Harris is an different animal. It's SysID that matters. Most Moto systems start out with the same WACN and may change once system is running a bit. this was originally meant to enable interoperability across all Moto P25 systems. With Harris systems, this logic is out the window, as the WACN is actually the Site number on almost all their P25 IP WATRS's. Even on the Harris smaller area TRS's.. its an tad more interesting. Again, the System ID (SysID) is what tells you who the system is. Harris is an oddball in other ways also. CC rotation being the other glaring difference. All freqs in an Harris system are in the rotation whereas with the other vendors, 2 to 4 are used in the CC rotation.

 

[Jay911]

the WACN is actually the Site number on almost all [Harris'] P25 IP WATRS's.

I know that Harris systems are different, but I've never heard it described like this. What do you mean by 'the site number'? You don't mean the tower site, do you, you mean the Harris deployment/project number? Because the system in my province has nearly 400 sites and only one WACN (yet two SIDs) - 660C5 with 05A and 05B.

Again, the System ID (SysID) is what tells you who the system is.

There are dozens of systems with SID 001 in the DB. (or even 001, 002, 005, 00A, etc) What's your explanation for that? (I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely want to know how clearly disparate systems with the same SID but different WACNs fit into your theory.)

(US) National Capital Region is another example. WACN 580A0, and about a dozen SIDs. Perhaps they're not interconnected - the callsign decoder says 580A0 (plus the various SID) equals a "callsign" of "NCR####" (where #### is sometimes random characters and sometimes some kind of legitimate abbreviation).

 

[INDY72]

Correction, the Harris systems also a lot of the time also use the same SysID's for their systems... And the WACN is the SysID...(Just the reverse of Moto and others.). But in an multisite Harris system, when you run decoding software such as Pro96Com etc.. Each site will have its own weird RFSS and look like its own system... Which its not. (Lets just say Harris makes it interesting all around. What else would you expect from the folks that brought us EDACS Pro Voice, and OpenSKY?) OK first some Moto's....

IDPS... SysID 262 WACN BEE00, SAFE-T P25... SySID 6BD WACN BEE00, MSWIN... SySID 2AD WACN BEE00, Entergy P25... SysID 64F WACN BEE00

Harris's...

City of Jackson, MS Public Works P25... SysID 00A WACN 651BD (Smaller one but you will see in an moment....

Oktibbeha County/MSU P25... SysID 00A WACN 92448 (Slightly larger but see anything yet?)

Here is where Harris uses different SysID's.. FED systems... Center For Domestic Preparedness... SysID 064 WACN 13700

And another slightly different Harris arrangement for the Monroe/Ontario Counties P25 in NY. SysID's (One for each part of the one system) 227 WACN 458AD 228 WACN 458AD.

And so on.... Where a lot of them the WACN is really the SysID, and others where it has an unique SysID but whacked RFSS and WACN set ups.

This is why the main thing to look at is the SysID, unless you know for an fact its an Harris system, then you look at everything.

In an Mot system, the Sites and Zones actually make sense.

Such as RFSS 1 Site 1, 2, 3, RFSS 2 site 1, 2, 3 etc....
Harris...

RFSS 01 site 001, RFSS 02 site 001, are usually actually same zone and listed as sites 1, and 2 of one zone. Its so much fun with Harris.



Motorola and others use unique System ID's for each system core controller, and very similar WACN's usually beginning with the one BEE00 as stated so that they can all work together ideally. Harris on most of the systems being deployed recently are throwing the reverse into the mix by using say 00A as System ID's, and WACN's as the differentiation.... And completely strange zone/site set up system. So if you see an multiple numerical/alphabetical SysID of more than 3 characters, or just 00A (With non Federal/Military TRS's), its probably Harris, and then you look at the WACN, and how the zone/site configuration is done. If its ID is only 3 characters, and it has an WACN starting with BEE, and the zone/sites make sense, you have an Moto or EFJ, or EADS/Cassadian, or Tait.

For more on Motorola's working together using the ASTRO-25 platforms, look up the three versions of ISSI, and how with that WACN similarity, it can create monster systems of multiple Wide Area systems.... Example: GulfWIN, and system created by activating use of ISSI combining the MSWIN, LWIN, TXWARN, and once completed, AFRRN into one system for emergencies.

 

[Jay911]

And the WACN is the SysID...

Now you've lost me. The WACN and the SysID (SID) are two different things, period.

City of Jackson, MS Public Works P25... SysID 00A WACN 651BD (Smaller one but you will see in an moment....

That translates to "PGC3KR" on the callsign converter.

Oktibbeha County/MSU P25... SysID 00A WACN 92448 (Slightly larger but see anything yet?)

WPDTSR for that one. I don't see a correlation.

My province's Harris system is 660C5-05A and 05B. That equals PMD4LJ and PMD4LK on the callsign converter.

Here is where Harris uses different SysID's.. FED systems... Center For Domestic Preparedness... SysID 064 WACN 13700

"CDP BT" for the callsign converter. It's a "vanity WACN/SID" of sorts. That's what I was getting at with my last post mentioning the NCR WACN(s).

And another slightly different Harris arrangement for the Monroe/Ontario Counties P25 in NY. SysID's (One for each part of the one system) 227 WACN 458AD 228 WACN 458AD.

XEB3X9 and XEB3Y. Making about as much sense as my province's system.

Motorola's WACNs actually don't convert in the callsign converter because they actually embed their manufacturer ID. I forget exactly what part of the string it is but it's part or all of the "BEE" section.

Other systems like MPSCS (92493-796) decode to their correct FCC callsign or part thereof (WPIH50, corresponds to any of WPIH504 to 509).

Sometimes the WACN and SID are picked by the vendor (in Motorola's case where they assign a unique SID and tack the Moto manufacturer-id WACN); sometimes they correspond to a genuine radio callsign or a "vanity name" like "CPD BT" above; sometimes they seem completely random or arbitrary like the Harris examples above; and sometimes they seem to have some kind of numbering system that makes sense to someone, with some sense of order, but not obvious to us (or at least me) - like the number of systems listed as "0000A-00A", and the system in Newfoundland ID'ing as "0000C-00C", and so on.

In an Mot system, the Sites and Zones actually make sense.

Such as RFSS 1 Site 1, 2, 3, RFSS 2 site 1, 2, 3 etc....
Harris...

RFSS 01 site 001, RFSS 02 site 001, are usually actually same zone and listed as sites 1, and 2 of one zone. Its so much fun with Harris.

It doesn't make too much sense, but I get the feeling it's up to the system builder and/or the owner. My province has put together nearly 400 sites in two SIDs, and each RFSS and site is the same number repeated. That is to say, RFSS 100 site 100 is near me, and has a neighbor of 098-098, and another neighbor of 092-092. A different system in the province follows a more "normal" numbering system of 001-066, 001-067, 001-068, and so on. And the aforementioned system in Newfoundland, with single tower sites in various regions over very wide areas, actually has a slew of site 1s across many different RFSSes. For example, there's RFSS 016 site 001, RFSS 024 site 001, and 032-001, 036-001, 050-001, and so on. That one I can almost understand, because sites are dozens of miles apart, and if they were to "fill in" between sites, it would make sense to have site 2s and 3s and 4s and so on under RFSS 32, 50, etc.

Anyway, all this discussion having been done, can we at least concede that when WACN1 = WACN2 and SID1 = SID2, other than the exceptions in my first post, the systems are the same?

 

[INDY72]

In Mot systems with differing SysID's, as illustrated, you can easily tell the difference between which system is which on P25's. (Converters don't get used by most of our users, who submit the data we use, most use Pro96Com, Unitrunker, T-88 etc. and thus show simple SysID, and basic WACN)

With Harris systems, especially with the current crop of 00A as SysID's, it gets confusing, so then you go to the WACN displayed. Each site in most Harris systems display as their own zone and site.

But the overall point is that if you have 2 or more "systems" showing the same ID whether it is the Motorola method or the Harris way (WACN being ID), its one system. With MOSWIN, the system being discussed which is an Motorola ASTRO-25, and the STL/LAMBO, also ASTRO-25, both showing the same SysID, and WACN and sharing sites with same numbering/zones.... And TG's... It is indeed one system. Which was planned from the inception of the MOSWIN from day one. This was the way it was going to happen. The VHF sites would be tied into various city/county/agency 700/800 MHz systems, and thus provide seamless coverage for the entire state of MO. Conveniently forgotten apparently. Which as I said, reminds me of the arguments over the TACN. Anyway life goes on.

 

[DanRollman]

If it has same SysID, and neighbor lists, and other things.... It is one system. Same SysID means it shares one core, therefore is one system. Looks like the MO admins need to tidy it up and show it as such. Even if an system has sites that are say, multiple counties away from each other, if they share that core and broadcast the same ID they are part of that one system. An big example would be an certain TRS in GA,.. It has sites in two separate counties that do not border each other, but it is one system..

Sorry to bring up old news here, but wanted to try to get clarification on this. Perhaps you are referring to Cobb County, GA and Forsyth County, GA P25 systems? Because they both share the same Sys ID, they are really one system, right?

But question is, how do two sites on the same system have identical Site ID numbers? Or is that an error in the DB? In other words, how do we end up with two separate entries for System 17D Site 1, with two totally different sets of frequencies in two different counties (Cobb and Forsyth)? Clearly they share a Sys ID, because they're really one system. But should Forsyth's site on this system be Site 5 or something? Or do I misunderstand how ISSI works and how it is capable of having two independent sites share the same Site number on the same System?

Dan

 

[wa8pyr]

Sorry to bring up old news here, but wanted to try to get clarification on this. Perhaps you are referring to Cobb County, GA and Forsyth County, GA P25 systems? Because they both share the same Sys ID, they are really one system, right?

Correct. The system that brought this up was MOSWIN and Lambert Field, which are a single system (MOSWIN) but were listed as separate systems. That has since been corrected. Knowing Cobb and Forsyth as Motorola strongholds, I suspect the same is true there. And having just looked at both database entries, I'm positive that they're the same system; the Cobb sites are 1-4, while Forsyth is Site 5. When you get a chance please combine them; use the fancy local name for the unified system if there is one, otherwise just call it "Cobb-Forsyth P25."

In a nutshell, if the System ID is identical, it's most likely a single system. As others have noted, look at the WACN also; if it is BEE00 it's most likely Motorola (or connected to a Motorola system). Anything other than BEE00 (especially something really outlandish looking), take a hard look at other parameters of the system as it might be a Harris system.

Harris, for some totally messed up reason, shares the same System ID but uses different WACN codes to differentiate between systems. I don't pretend to understand the convoluted thinking behind that, but the boys in Lynchburg always did do things a bit differently.

But question is, how do two sites on the same system have identical Site ID numbers? Or is that an error in the DB? In other words, how do we end up with two separate entries for System 17D Site 1, with two totally different sets of frequencies in two different counties (Cobb and Forsyth)? Clearly they share a Sys ID, because they're really one system. But should Forsyth's site on this system be Site 5 or something? Or do I misunderstand how ISSI works and how it is capable of having two independent sites share the same Site number on the same System?

If there are two sites with the same number, they're usually in different zones. However, there can be separate sites with the same number in the same zone on different frequency bands.

 

[DanRollman]

And having just looked at both database entries, I'm positive that they're the same system; the Cobb sites are 1-4, while Forsyth is Site 5. When you get a chance please combine them; use the fancy local name for the unified system if there is one, otherwise just call it "Cobb-Forsyth P25."

In a nutshell, if the System ID is identical, it's most likely a single system. As others have noted, look at the WACN also; if it is BEE00 it's most likely Motorola (or connected to a Motorola system). Anything other than BEE00 (especially something really outlandish looking), take a hard look at other parameters of the system as it might be a Harris system.

If there are two sites with the same number, they're usually in different zones. However, there can be separate sites with the same number in the same zone on different frequency bands.

Right. I just fixed the Forsyth entry in the DB this morning (although I did not combine it with Cobb). Up until my change this morning, Cobb and Forsyth each had entries in the DB with identical system ID, identical WACN, identical RFSS, identical site number (1), and identical band (800 MHz), but different frequencies. That was the genesis of my question. I learned that the Forsyth simulcast zone is actually Site 5, not Site 1, so I corrected the RR DB entry for that this morning.

Dan

 

[wa8pyr]

Right. I just fixed the Forsyth entry in the DB this morning (although I did not combine it with Cobb). Up until my change this morning, Cobb and Forsyth each had entries in the DB with identical system ID, identical WACN, identical RFSS, identical site number (1), and identical band (800 MHz), but different frequencies. That was the genesis of my question. I learned that the Forsyth simulcast zone is actually Site 5, not Site 1, so I corrected the RR DB entry for that this morning.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that they are separate systems and in fact the Forsyth system misc info field specifically states that it is Site 5 of the Cobb system. There is also a notation under Forsyth County Sheriff that some FCSO talkgroups are simulcast on the Cobb "system."

Please combine them into a single system, per RR policy. I'll do it myself if you elect not to do so.