Interoperability

[billy2047]

Good day folks,

unlike other systems such as SAFE-T, TACN, AIRS, LWIN and TxWARN, it seems like in florida each county has its own trunked system with unique SysID and WACN.

For instance, Tampa's P25 has its own system (Sysid: 32D WACN: 1E306), to the west you have Polk's P25 (Sysid: 396 WACN: BEE00), to the north you have Pasco's P25 (Sysid: 00A WACN: 927F9).. Which makes me wonder how does interoperability work in Florida?

Let say an officer drives a few counties over their home system, do radios just "bonk" like when it's out of range?

I do aware that there's statewide SLERS (both EDACS and P25), but for the most part, most counties run their own system.

Thanks

BB

 

[Bote]

It's Florida. We're lucky to have flush toilets.

 

[ngel]

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@billy2047 they are using these channels to communicate with each other very frequently. Dispatch centers can patch some systems together too. 8tac93 and 8tac92 I’ve hear in use during events like parades and motorcades with law enforcement. FDs usually go to 8tac94​

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800 MHz National Mutual Aid​

These channels replaced the ICALL/ITAC channels nationwide.

Frequency	License	Type	Tone	Alpha Tag	Description	Mode	Tag
851.0125	RM	156.7 PL	8CALL90	8CALL90 - Calling	FM	Interop
851.0125	BM	156.7 PL	8CALL90D	8CALL90 - Calling - Direct	FM	Interop
851.5125	RM	156.7 PL	8TAC91	8TAC91 - Tactical	FM	Interop
851.5125	BM	156.7 PL	8TAC91D	8TAC91 - Tactical - Direct	FMN	Interop
852.0125	RM	156.7 PL	8TAC92	8TAC92 - Tactical	FM	Interop
852.0125	BM	156.7 PL	8TAC92D	8TAC92 - Tactical - Direct	FMN	Interop
852.5125	RM	156.7 PL	8TAC93	8TAC93 - Tactical	FM	Interop
852.5125	BM	156.7 PL	8TAC93D	8TAC93 - Tactical - Direct	FMN	Interop
853.0125	RM	156.7 PL	8TAC94	8TAC94 - Tactical	FM	Interop
853.0125	BM	156.7 PL	8TAC94D	8TAC94 - Tactical - Direct	FMN

 

[N4DES]

In the state we have done a ton of cross-programming and some take it one step further and have implemented ISSI between the systems. Just because the County's, and some municipalities, are autonomous doesn't mean they can't communicate. I have 69 agencies on my interoperability list from the three letter Federal agencies down to the smallest municipality in my County and they all know where to go to find each other.

We also don't design and roll out systems around where our users reside or commute from.

 

[batdude]

I would add just my thoughts. SLERS was supposed to be the "end all" for public safety comms in Florida. Unfortunately, and regardless of what you may read here and there - it's really a mobile-only coverage system. Most of the large cities and counties did not desire to give up their autonomy by signing onto the SLERS system - which then and now, to my knowledge, isn't "free" - there is a cost associated with every single user on the system. With all the infighting and politics in FL, unless the FL legislature enacted a law of some sort - there will never be a "true" statewide all-LE system in FL. Sure, they're going to build out SLERS 2.0, but unless some big - BIG money is tossed at that project - it's still just going to be a mobile-only coverage system - AS FAR AS TWO WAY RADIO GOES --- I am thinking that the real SLERS 2.0 solution is going to be some LTE-capable system that gives portable coverage. Will that entice any local LE agencies to switch to SLERS 2.0? My guess? Not many.....

All that said, everyone in FL who enjoys monitoring LE / PS comms should 100% have a bank / favorites list of just the interoperability freqs.... they are far from "busy" most days - but when there is activity, it's in the clear and it's good listening - big fires, car chases, etc.

this page can be helpful -
Radio Communications Plans / Radio Communications Services / Public Safety Communications / Telecommunications / Business Operations / Florida Department of Management Services - DMS

 

[N4DES]

SLERS was supposed to be the "end all" for public safety comms in Florida.

No it was never designed to be that, even in the first VSELP system that Motorola rolled out that covered the southeast, and then continued to expand with L3Harris and EDACS. There were never enough frequencies assigned to SLERS anywhere in the state to make this viable for any urbanized areas. The locals would have to give up their local frequency assignments and provide space on their own towers to get the in-building coverage that they need daily if they chose to connect to the local EDCAC's core, and then had to deal with the drama of Sole Source procurement of the subscribers through their Purchasing Departments.

Also just by its acronym, it is not a "public safety system" except in some remote locations that they allow local Fire and EMS on it. It is strictly a Law Enforcement system in 98% of the state.

 

[billy2047]

In the state we have done a ton of cross-programming and some take it one step further and have implemented ISSI between the systems. Just because the County's, and some municipalities, are autonomous doesn't mean they can't communicate. I have 69 agencies on my interoperability list from the three letter Federal agencies down to the smallest municipality in my County and they all know where to go to find each other.

We also don't design and roll out systems around where our users reside or commute from.

Thanks for the info! I do how a few questions about that.

While it is great to have multiple zones programmed into the radio, do you think that's going to increase the complexity operating the radio in an emergency situation?

For instance, imagine a LEO foot pursuing a suspect two counties over and his/her radio is bonking OOR. Then the office pulls out his/her radio, changes 5 zones and turn the channel knob 6 times to get to let say 8TAC91. The officer keys up and nobody hears him/her because he/she miscounted rotating the knob 7 times instead of 6. (btw, some LEO radios dont even have a screen other than the concentric switch and side buttons)

That is when large system with multiple sites roaming really shines. In this case, officer doesnt have to do anything and maintains contact with dispatch all the time. The dispatcher can just patch talkgroups together.

 

[tampabaynews]

When I left the department I worked for, all mobile/portable units had direct access to all four county systems that bordered ours. We also used the 8-TAC and MA FLA. The comm center also had the ability to patch other systems in via FIN. Ironically we never had direct SLERS access because they didn't want to deal with ESK locking the radios.

Honestly, while your example could and probably has happened, its likely not recurrent enough in their eyes to warrant the expense of a large system. We rarely had officers that ventured outside of a bordering county on duty, you couldn't live further than that. Any detectives that travel for extraditions and other investigations used cell phones.

Maybe SLERS-P25 will be more interop friendly.

 

[N4DES]

Thanks for the info! I do how a few questions about that.

While it is great to have multiple zones programmed into the radio, do you think that's going to increase the complexity operating the radio in an emergency situation?

For instance, imagine a LEO foot pursuing a suspect two counties over and his/her radio is bonking OOR. Then the office pulls out his/her radio, changes 5 zones and turn the channel knob 6 times to get to let say 8TAC91. The officer keys up and nobody hears him/her because he/she miscounted rotating the knob 7 times instead of 6. (btw, some LEO radios dont even have a screen other than the concentric switch and side buttons)

That is when large system with multiple sites roaming really shines. In this case, officer doesnt have to do anything and maintains contact with dispatch all the time. The dispatcher can just patch talkgroups together.

Majority of agencies would not be doing a foot pursuit 2 counties away... just doesn't happen that way. If something goes that far air support hands it off to the adjacent county and the Commanding Officer decides if it's worth taking it on.

 

[batdude]

No it was never designed to be that, even in the first VSELP system that Motorola rolled out that covered the southeast, and then continued to expand with L3Harris and EDACS.

This is contrary to a PowerPoint presentation I saw circa mid- late 1990s.

They were pretty much begging cities and counties to get on the system - but i bet that “cost” would have been Giving up their 800 freqs.

On a personal note, I find the cost vs benefit of the entire SLERS project to be absolutely laughable.

 

[Gmork]

In the state we have done a ton of cross-programming and some take it one step further and have implemented ISSI between the systems. Just because the County's, and some municipalities, are autonomous doesn't mean they can't communicate. I have 69 agencies on my interoperability list from the three letter Federal agencies down to the smallest municipality in my County and they all know where to go to find each other.

We also don't design and roll out systems around where our users reside or commute from.

I sure wish we had the same attitude in the county south. Until then egos will prevail and the 99% of end users will have no idea of the systems capabilities.

 

[N4DES]

I sure wish we had the same attitude in the county south. Until then egos will prevail and the 99% of end users will have no idea of the systems capabilities.

The county south of me adopted my County's interop program including the naming convention on the Law side. They didn't let their ego's get in the way of a very successful program that we have had in place since 2001. The Common's naming convention now goes from the Broward/Miami-Dade line to the St. Lucie/Indian River line as Martin and St. Lucie did the same when they went P25.

I have Broward users on quite a bit when I run talk-group usage reports.

 

[billy2047]

Majority of agencies would not be doing a foot pursuit 2 counties away... just doesn't happen that way. If something goes that far air support hands it off to the adjacent county and the Commanding Officer decides if it's worth taking it on.

thanks!

 

[billy2047]

wouldnt it be fair to say that interoperability/roaming does exist in Florida, it's just that an officer has to manually change zone/channel their own rather than being handle seamlessly by the system like it would in large statewide systems such as SAFE-T, TACN, AIRS, LWIN and TxWARN.

 

[Bote]

Wouldn't it be fair to say that interoperability/roaming does exist in Florida, it's just that an officer has to manually change zone/channel their own rather than being handle seamlessly by the system like it would in large statewide systems such as SAFE-T, TACN, AIRS, LWIN and TxWARN.

I think you're searching for some blanket answer about all of Florida, but it just aint that way.

The various jurisdictions have arrived at the arrangement today organically, so it must work for them even if it's not part of a statewide system.

Dade County uses 8Call90. Broward County calls FHP on the phone; sometimes they even answer. Broward and Palm Beach were just communicating last week on a brush fire on the Boca Raton/Deerfield Beach line, using what I assume was a MotoBridge link. The lesser Orlando area uses 155.37 for dispatchers to blurt out lookouts and such between neighboring comm centers.

Counties along the northern tier and the Panhandle have only recently jumped from VHF and UHF conventional systems to 800 and 700MHz trunked systems; Columbia County is the most recent one that I have noted when their VHF channels fell silent last year as I was traversing that area. I'm sure they have some arrangement with their neighbors.

There is no "one size fits all" approach in Florida. That's just the way it is.

 

[Gmork]

The county south of me adopted my County's interop program including the naming convention on the Law side. They didn't let their ego's get in the way of a very successful program that we have had in place since 2001. The Common's naming convention now goes from the Broward/Miami-Dade line to the St. Lucie/Indian River line as Martin and St. Lucie did the same when they went P25.

I have Broward users on quite a bit when I run talk-group usage reports.

My response may have been a little aggressive. The naming has been consistent and easy for having access to other systems. However there has been little to no end user training. Most users have no idea they can go to LE Call if they are in your county if they need something. That is something internally but this seem consistent across most agencies in this county.

Also I find is very surprising that there is nothing programmed to access Miami-Dade for interop. At least nothing up to date...

 

[billy2047]

My response may have been a little aggressive. The naming has been consistent and easy for having access to other systems. However there has been little to no end user training. Most users have no idea they can go to LE Call if they are in your county if they need something. That is something internally but this seem consistent across most agencies in this county.

Also I find is very surprising that there is nothing programmed to access Miami-Dade for interop. At least nothing up to date...

I agree with you. I think thats when large statewide multi site systems really shine (probably never gonna happend in FL). A LEO from County A can roam to County Z without switching channel or zone. It's all handled by the system and LEO maintains his/her talkgroup.

To me, it seems like in FL trunked systems are set up "conventionally", meaning that if you travel outside of county A into county Z, well, good luck on your own.

Also, Inter-WACN or Intra-WACN just dont seem to work efficiently in Florida, because counties have their own SysID and WACN naming. For instance, Tampa's P25 which has a Sysid: 32D and WACN: 1E306, then to the east you have Polk's P25 with Sysid: 396 WACN: BEE00, to the north you have Pasco's P25 with Sysid: 00A WACN: 927F9... So an officer from Pasco travels to Polk wont be able to talk back unless he/she changes zone manually.

I believe the only few trunked systems that have true roaming are Duke Energy P25, FPL and SLERS (both EDACS and P25)

 

[billy2047]

Also I think most LEOs prefer patching more than changing channel/zone.

SO A123: A123 to dispatch, could you patch us with PD
SO dispatch: 10-4
2 minutes later...
PD dispatch: SO is requesting a patch
Supervisor, interrupting: if they need it go head and patch
Beep beep beep beep beep (motorola console alert tone)
SO and PD are now patched.
A123 is happy

 

[n3obl]

Everybody wants their own domain and no one wants other to play.

 

[RidingDownUnder]

It's Florida. We're lucky to have flush toilets.

I was going to go to Florida for a well deserved holiday. After reading this, I think I will can it. No not my #2‘s but the holiday. 😤🚽🇺🇸