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Is privacy on decentralized, wireless communication even a thing?

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CivSIGID

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Not sure where the best place to post this is but I'm hoping to get some enlightenment from the part 95 folks. If there is a more appropriate section for this to be in, please do move it.


I got my ham ticket almost exactly three years ago and given the state of the hobby with the emerging experimental allocations getting auctioned off, the raising of the license fee, and the general limitations of the service I'm not sure I'll renew it when that time comes. One of the major draws to the Ham service and to radio in general for me was the ability to communicate person-to-person without the use of networks in remote environments and under adverse conditions (I guess you could say I got suckered in by the ARRL "last line emcomm" talking points). Needless to say, the community and the service are definitely not what I was led to believe they are, and I don't think I got my license for the right reasons. One big sticking point for me is the encryption prohibition. However, that is a separate discussion and absolutely not a can of worms I want to open here -I've seen how certain people get when you bring it up. Frankly, I'm mostly fine with the dedication of service that is intended to promote outreach, research, and openness. The argument that privacy is not what the HA service is for is entirely compelling to me.

Where I get confused is when folks say something along the lines of 'If you want encryption part 97 is not the service for you. There are others for that.' Understood, but pray tell; which service would that be? Part 90 gets thrown around quite a bit, but I see nothing in there that permits individuals to apply for licenses for personal use. I'm not a business owner, nor an organization engaged in emergency services. Even if I was, I'm quite sure that operating your infrastructure for reasons outside (i.e., setting up discrete talkgroups and equipment for family and friends) of the stated purpose of your business would be at odds with the spirit of the law. I'm quite sure the FCC intends to reserve that spectrum for the entities they grant eligibility to in Part 90.33, not whoever feels like setting up some LLC so they can enjoy spectrum privileges they aren't meant to have. That just screams fraud. This is to say nothing of the price of a part 90 license, which (given my understanding laid out above) makes some sense. That's valuable spectrum and I don't expect the FCC to just give it away.

My next favorite retort is the "use your cellphone" (which is pretty sad to hear from enthusiasts of the radio arts). First of all, you do not have any expectation of privacy over the cellular or internet services. Data collection over social media and to a growing extant cellular networking is real and alarming. Forget the companies simply warehousing records and traffic data to be handed over at the whisper of a subpoena, and simply look at the vulnerability of those networks. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and there some awful weak links, rife for intrusion into those systems. NOT secure, from the right (wrong?) people. You are also relying on a private company who reserves the right to deny services to you for any reason (or none at all). Also, coverage. It will never be 100% for any network, for economic reasons as much as any other. Cellular networks and internet services are decidedly not as secure, nor are they as reliable as a transceiver in experienced hands. Relying on them during an emergency where comms are spotty is inadvisable at best. "Use your cellphone" is a terrible argument to make to a radio operator.

My RT82 could talk directly to a group of other RT82s in full 128bit privacy, without having to put money or faith in any third party's infrastructure or self-interested company's terms of service. The only legitimate public concern this should raise is responsible usage of the RF spectrum. I am 100% willing to pay (within reason) for the privilege of operating my own network within the confines of responsibility to the public utility, but there is seemingly no way this can be done. No amount of licensing or permission appears to make this legal. It's like the FCC doesn't know such a thing could even exist. I'm at a loss as to why this is, because it would be trivial to allow any one or all of the Part 95 services to enable digital privacy an approved channel, or to allow personal use in the Part 97 services on a secondary allocation basis. Part of me thinks that this is due to the snail's pace at which regulatory agencies adapt to technological advances, but part of me also wonders how they haven't (in nearly 90 years) thought about what people might do if the networks fail them and they wish to convey private information wirelessly to trusted parties in range without the possibility of being intercepted and tracked by potential bad actors. This looks an awful lot like an infringement on our first and fourth amendment rights as citizens, and an irresponsible, nepotistic failure by an agency to manage a public resource that we are all meant to own to and enjoy.

Sorry this turned into sort of a rant. I'm interested to hear what people think. Maybe I'm also dead wrong and overlooking a service that meets these needs, in which case I will gladly stand corrected.
 

jeepsandradios

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As you said above part 90 is the logical choice. There are many business only frequencies that can be had for small business especially in the 5watt or less category. Part 95 (GMRS) is very limited on frequencies so if they said hey go ahead I can see a mess. With that said they could have taken some of the FRS only channels and made them digital with encryption but that costs money and vendors are trying to make money.

I know there is some basic encryption used in FRS, GMRS and HAM. None of it is legal but until the FCC enforces the rules you will see it happen. I am glad many follow said rules.
 

Skypilot007

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You want privacy, set up HF stations and learn CW. Nobody knows CW anymore so it's a legal form of encryption now days! :)

I too like to have private communications on occasion and with all these Chinese radios offering it right out of the box, of course people are going to use it. Heck the Anytone 578 mobile and 878 portable offer AES256, doesn't get more secure than that with the exception of the way they handle encryption keys.

There is a group in my area using encrypted DMR simplex on amateur bands, been at it for well over two years. No complaints, no problems. There was even a high profile GMRS repeater around here using DMR with encryption for a while. Sometimes you have to break the rules to get away from others who are breaking the rules (lids, unlicensed operators, etc).
 

nd5y

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Where I get confused is when folks say something along the lines of 'If you want encryption part 97 is not the service for you. There are others for that.' Understood, but pray tell; which service would that be? Part 90 gets thrown around quite a bit, but I see nothing in there that permits individuals to apply for licenses for personal use.
Because people who say that have never read the FCC rules and don't know what they are talking about.
You are correct that there is nothing in the eligibility requirements in 90.20(a) or 90.35(a) that covers private non-business personal use by individuals, but encryption is allowed for eligible licensees.
 

MTS2000des

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The basis and purpose of amateur radio is experimentation and promoting the art of radio communications. Ham radio operators also provide some level of community service during disasters however over recent decades, not so much so as commercial communications networks have become more robust and network operators do a pretty decent job of restoration post disaster. That being said, the value is not in the equipment but in the operator and his/her skill set. Buying a box of Baoturds is not "preparedness" and is of little value. Now the ham who can construct an ad hoc network of repeaters, APRS digitpeaters, or long haul wireless IP- that's something to lay claim to.

Amateur radio is open by nature and encourages collaboration within the amateur community. Yes, I certainly see the point of why some folks choose to utilize encryption to secure their DMR networks from unauthorized use, Baoturds, lids, etc- but one must remember that intentionally "obscuring the meaning of transmissions" is not only going against the rules but against the amateur spirit. In short, it isn't meant to be SpyGame Militia Comms radio service and that has no place there.

BTW, RAS works great to keep lids, China crap and kerchunkerbators off a MotoTRBO repeater. And is 100 percent legal as it's NOT voice encryption, one can still listen all day long with a scanner, SDR, etc. They just can't jack off kerchunking your TRBO repeater. :ROFLMAO:
 

ur20v

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There are local, regional, and nationwide systems you and your friends/group can subscribe to and use whatever encryption your little hearts desire.
 

2IR473

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It is obvious the amateur radio service is not what you want. Amateur radio is simply a hobby. If you want to talk about the meal you had last night, or discuss your last visit with your doctor, then amateur radio may be your thing,

GMRS comes closer to your needs. It is a radio service, available to individuals in order to facilitate a variety of communications needs, but does not allow for encrypted transmissions either.

In the end, there is little that is truly secure and private, that would be available to an individual.

If you are not attempting to cover great distances with your communications, perhaps some of the 900 mHz spread spectrum radios may be an option ?

It is possible for you to obtain a business license (Part 90) and perhaps that will get you closer to what you are looking for. While I have no first hand experience with that, I have two close friends that each have a license to operate under Part 90 rule. Each have been assigned frequencies on which to operate, and the reasons for needing a license were fairly vague from what I can tell, such as “Using radios to coordinate communications maintenance activities.”

These guy went through a local radio communications company that assists in obtaining licenses for people and businesses, offers repeater access through their own network, sells and programs radios, etc. Perhaps speaking with a company that offers those services in your area may help you.

I would just suggest that your desire for private and secure communications not be the focal point of your reason for seeking a license, as we live in an odd time, and an American who seeks privacy and security can be construed as something other than a typical American citizen.

In this Department of Homeland Security bulletin of 14 May 2021, it states the following...
“Ideologically-motivated violent extremists fueled by perceived grievances, false narratives, and conspiracy theories continue to share information online with the intent to incite violence.”

and further states...
“The use of encrypted messaging by lone offenders and small violent extremist cells may obscure operational indicators that provide specific warning of a pending act of violence”.

In the United States of America in 2021, our personal desires to seek privacy and facilitate our own security can be interpreted by others as suspicious activity, when in fact all we are trying to do is be good Americans.
 

ur20v

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There's really nothing in Part 90 that prohibits anyone (US citizens of upstanding moral character or whatever) from obtaining a license, as long as it's under the guise of a corporation or "association". Every state is different, but I know where I live anyone can create an LLC for $100 and that's it. Some states make it much more difficult and expensive than that. That's where an "association" could come into play. An association has no separate legal identity like a corporation does. It could be a family, a group of friends, fans of a certain sportsball team or league, people with red hair, whatever. You could be the U.S. ASSOCIATION OF UHF DIGITAL COMMS FETISHIZERS & ECRYPTION DORKS and if all your i's are crossed and t's are dotted you'll be issued a license. There's no circumvention of laws or creative interpretation of regs, etc. A couple of schmoe's with a Part 90 license because they want private radio communications are perfectly legit (as long as they are legal... power, frequencies, etc.).
 

nd5y

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There's really nothing in Part 90 that prohibits anyone (US citizens of upstanding moral character or whatever) from obtaining a license, as long as it's under the guise of a corporation or "association".
You don't need a corporation or association. There are thousands of self employed farmers and ranchers that aren't part of anything that have Industrial/Business licenses.
 

ur20v

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You don't need a corporation or association. There are thousands of self employed farmers and ranchers that aren't part of anything that have Industrial/Business licenses.

Being self-employed means they all have business licenses and are incorporated or otherwise organized as a business in one form or another.
 

nd5y

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Part 90 doesn't say anything about being incoportated or having a state business license.

§90.35 Industrial/Business Pool.
(a) Eligibility. Persons primarily engaged in any of the following activities are eligible to hold authorizations in the Industrial/Business Pool to provide commercial mobile radio service as defined in part 20 of this chapter or to operate stations for transmission of communications necessary to such activities of the licensee:
(1) The operation of a commercial activity;
(2) The operation of educational, philanthropic, or ecclesiastical institutions;
(3) Clergy activities; or
(4) The operation of hospitals, clinics, or medical associations.
(5) Public Safety Pool eligibles are eligible for Industrial/Business Pool spectrum only to The extent that they are engaged in activities listed in paragraphs (a)(1) through (4) of this section. Industrial/Business Pool spectrum many not be utilized for the purposes set forth in §90.20(a).
 

littona

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The hardest part of getting a Part 90 license is the cost. :D You have to get the signoff of a frequency coordinator, which is above the standard FCC filing fees. And then there's the paperwork... :p Not fun, but not impossible. It's much easier to pay someone else to do it for you if you can afford it.
 

mmckenna

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Several options if you want to run encryption, but none of them are going to be free or easy. This isn't a realm for the free/easy crowd. If you want that, get a cell phone (I know, you don't want to hear that….).

There's an old saying: "If it has an antenna, it's not secure". Doesn't meant that others can necessarily hear you, but it does mean that someone with the right equipment can block your signal.

In other words, you need to decide what you really want. It's easy to say "Give me one with everything", but when the waiter brings the bill, you need to pay up.

Giving us a detailed description of what you want would help a whole lot. Do understand that the "one with everything" isn't going to be free or easy. When describing what you want, it would help greatly if you supplied some information on your budget for such a system.
 

ohiodesperado

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As far as a business. Grow vegetables and sell them at a farmers market. Then you have a business.
I personally know a guy that had a part 90 license and WAS running DES and then AES256, his business was making hay.
He cut and baled hay and straw. That was it. FCC was fine to give him a license.

Now your comment about cell phones and pretty sad to hear from enthusiasts of the radio arts .
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard said on here about hammies. I been licensed a LONG time. Now as long as some but certainly longer than others. And RADIO ARTS????? REALLY???? Appliance operators dude. There is ZERO art to taking a 30 dollar Baofeng radio, throwing some frequencies in it and letting its build in roger beep make everyone listening to the repeater that has been licensed more then 12 days mad about needing to hear that nonsense.

Now, options. First is ISM bands. There are spread spectrum frequency hopping radios out there that even without encryption would be near impossible to monitor with any sort of commercially available scanner. And since it's ISM, it's no license, no worries. At least if you are only wanting to talk the neighborhood. Repeaters with this sort of thing just don't exist... it's strictly radio to radio.

Loosely form a ham club and post your encryption key in the club welcome documents. If it's publicly out there,,, it's not private. And you are allowed to have a closed repeater that is for private ham use only. Encrypting the system is effectively making it closed.
Or just get proper radios that are on ham frequencies and use them radio to radio (simplex) with encryption. There are a number of us that have 900 Mhz gear that have encryption in them that are keyed and our statement is that if we are on 900 Mhz with P25 and AES256, the zombies (or anyone else) will not even realize we are there. There is a time and place for everything. That includes encrypted operations on ham radio repeaters. But keep in mind that it better be YOUR repeater, it will need to be P25 to support anything past voice scrambling and prepare to pay out the ear for the gear. You will need Motorola radios$$$. You will need a key loader $$$. You will need YOUR OWN REPEATER $$$$$$$$$.
ANd you will need somewhere to part said repeater on a tower that unless you have a spot in mind and an agreement in place you will be paying at minimum $500 a month to get any decent vertical real estate. And don't think that you are gonna be allowed to climb someones tower and install your own antenna either unless it's a private site owned by a friend. A tower crew is 3 to 6 grand for one day. Which is about what it's gonna take to install your antenna and line.

The last thing to be said here is this. Realize that there is a time and place for this, and that's NOT every transmission. If you need to discuss something that should not be shared, and the situation is such that you can't have a face to face conversation, whatever. If you are chatting about your new antenna install on your car, your latest "go bag" gear list, or some other mundane topic that isn't super secret, then turn the encryption off and don't worry about it. If you have it in your head that EVERY conversation needs to be had with AES256 then you are missing the point and certainly need a private part 90 frequency or other means of communications besides ham radio.
 

n1das

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Really? Even with AES 256? Please do tell how we can all listen to stuff with AES 256 lol...
Remember that every time you transmit you give away the location of the transmitter to anybody with the right equipment. Encryption can't prevent that.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is no need to decrypt anything in order to detect when radios are in use.
 

n1das

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Now, options. First is ISM bands. There are spread spectrum frequency hopping radios out there that even without encryption would be near impossible to monitor with any sort of commercially available scanner. And since it's ISM, it's no license, no worries. At least if you are only wanting to talk the neighborhood. Repeaters with this sort of thing just don't exist... it's strictly radio to radio.

Repeaters DO exist for them.

Repeater for DTR and DLR radios:

This repeater is not a repeater in the conventional sense. It is based on a pair of DLR radios connected together and running custom firmware to function as a repeater. Its purpose is to extend coverage areas and fill in holes in coverage. The typical use case is to extend coverage inside large buildings to upper floors or get past a building firewall. Each half of the repeater has to be strategically placed in order to work well. The DTRs and DLRs work amazingly well inside buildings and that's where they outperform conventional VHF/UHF radios on simplex. But sometimes they could use the help of a repeater to extend coverage or fill in holes in coverage in certain cases. It is not intended to be a repeater you would want to put on a tower at a mountaintop site, but it would be fun to try.

I am a user of Motorola DTR and DLR radios and own a small fleet of DTR radios. They are my professional quality digital replacement for GMRS/FRS for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. Their performance rivals top tier conventional VHF/UHF commercial radios on simplex and outperforms them in some cases. Compared to FRS, there is no contest. They totally blow FRS away. Not needing a license to use them and being totally unmonitorable on any consumer grade receiver (i.e., scanner) comes as a bonus. I use private talkgroups and private 1 to 1 calling to secure them and prevent other DTRs and DLRs outside my group from hearing them.
 
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