Kenwood: Kenwood TM-281 and PulseLarsen glass mount, motorhome, your thoughts?

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RRR

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"Capacitivly coupled", "passively coupled", it's still essentially the same. There is no solid connection between the two with the glass in between the glass mounts, thus the sub-par performance they all exhibit.

The theory is nice, but in reality, they are very lossy on receive, and can cause a transmitter to burn out over time.
 

mmckenna

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The theory is nice, but in reality, they are very lossy on receive, and can cause a transmitter to burn out over time.

Yep, we covered that above. As for "burning out the transmitter", that depends on reflected power, impedance mismatch, etc. A good quality antenna will not necessarily suffer from that. There's some skill involved with the installation, and done wrong any antenna can damage the radio.

But, yeah, I get where you are going.
 
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ShawnInPaso

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Hey Scott -

For the record, I've run Larsen on the glass antennas for twenty or more years. The first one I left on the vehicle when it sold and the second one succumbed to a tree limb after eleven years of service. They both worked great and I have compared them to other regularly installed 1/2 and 5/8's wave antenna's mounted on the roof of the same vehicles. The roof mounted antennas had a slight edge in performance, but not so much that it made much of a difference.

I also have a Jeep and for the past six years have been running a 1/2 wave dual band antenna just above the spare tire (similar to yours). Just today the inner conductor of the coax broke from those years of flexing when the rear hatch is opened. After seeing this thread I am kind of motivated to put a Larsen on the glass antenna on the Jeep (the roof never comes off).

Good luck with your install - that '281 has a super sensitive receiver as you may know.
 

FIREUP

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Hey Shawn,
Thanks for your reply and encouragement, pertaining to the glass mount. We'll see just how well it works, maybe today if I get the rig out in some empty parking lot and do a few tests. Now, you didn't say WHAT glass you may be wanting to attach a glass mount antenna to in your Jeep. I considered using a glass mount when I was setting up the Jeep for Ham but, one, if I chose an upper rear corner of the passengers side quarter-glass in the hard top, there's a pretty fair chance I'd do damage to it in not that long of time. And the reason would be, we off road quite a bit and, in some cases, we come dangerously close to branches/tall bushes etc. and I've got a couple of "Arizona Pinstriping" to show for it. So, having a glass mount on the side of the Jeep, to me, is not the best choice for a spot.

Now, putting it on the upper rear corner of the rear glass, that's got at least a little protection for it. Not much more but, at least some. And, at least on the JK models, if you (or I) would like to mount that glass mount in an upper corner of the rear glass, when you'd open the tail gate and then the tip the rear glass up, it goes past horizontal before it stops. And that would mean you'd be bending that antenna a bit, every time you'd open that rear glass. Now, would a slight bending of it damage it, most likely not since, it's gonna bend in the wind anyways..

So, just some thoughts here. Below are a few pics of my install of the new TM-281 in the motorhome. As you can see, it's close but, does not interfere with the drivers left leg. And, if you look close, you'll see it's installed with industrial VELCRO. It's the same stuff I used to "hang" the Ham set (ICON IC2000) from the ceiling of the Jeep. So far, that Jeep radio hasn't even had one of those thousands of tiny teeth come loose, in all the Jeeping and street running around since install. So, using that same industrial "3M Micro-lock" Velcro for the M/H radio install, shouldn't pose any problems. Sure as heck makes things real easy.

And, you can see the antenna install. Although it's hard to tell the distance, it's approximately 30" or more between the Ham and the C/B antenna. Let me know what you think.
Scott
 

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ShawnInPaso

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Scott,

I think it looks great. Terrific idea with the super velcro. Nicely done sir.

With regard to the antenna placement on my JKU, I'd likely mount it in the "pinstriping zone", driver side rear window. That's how I lost my last one, but it was more driver error than anything else. Also considering getting a Gobi rack and making a fold over mount.

Happy RV'ing with that new install.
 

FIREUP

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First, Hey Shawn, thanks for the nice comments, very much appreciated. Yep, that 3M industrial Velcro is some great stuff for sure.

Well Gang,
I did a test tonight with the new setup in the motor home. Yahooooooo! It works absolutely flawless. While the person I was speaking to was not very far, maybe a mile or two as the crow flies, he said I was coming in CRYSTAL clear with ultra strong voice application. We tried three different frequencies meaning, three different repeaters and all were picking my signals up just great. Now, I've ordered a Workman T-104 SWR/Power meter and it's to be arriving on Friday. So, I'll do a check on that SWR then. Oh, by the way, for all the transmissions tonight, the rig was set on LOW power which, is 25 watts. It's high setting is 65 watts. But, I was advised to keep it at low power 'till the SWR is checked. Anyway, I'm a happy camper. The glass mount is at least getting out some. Now, once the SWR is checked and, I get to a point where I know I'm quite a distance from a given repeater, that will be the true test. We'll see.
Scott
 

RRR

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I'm glad it works for what you want it to. But I have to wonder, are you just looking for positive replies, to make you feel better about using a glass mount antenna? A mile away at 25 watts can be achieved if you connected your rig to a rubber duck that was laying in the floorboard.

No need to justify what you want to do with your stuff, but a glass mount is pretty much a last resort, and does not offer normally acceptable performance.

Good luck with your install, and thanks for the pics. Maybe consider an "UnTenna" if you are worried about external damage, it might even improve your range!
 

FIREUP

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Well Gang,
I'm back. And, I've got a problem. I recently purchased a Workman model 104 SWR/Power meter. And, I checked my Jeep installation out and I've got a 1.2:1 SWR on the Jeep Ham installation. I figure that's pretty darn good. But, I went over to the motorhome and, pulled it out of it's cave and on to the end of the Cul De Sac so it would not have any buildings/obstructions around it while I was checking the SWR. I got it all setup and, I have at present, around 10.1:1 SWR. NOT GOOD!!

The Glass mount antenna instructions say it's already pre-tuned for VHF ops. But, I thought I'd check it anyways. Well, good thing I did. It's a wonder the radio's not toast. It sure worked great the other night on a check with another ham fella. Sure seems kinda odd that, it works so well, even on low power, but, has such a high SWR. So, at this point, I've got a real experienced buddy that's gonna help me with it tomorrow to see what can be done. And, in the end, if nothing can be, at least with that glass mount antenna, I'm gonna be on the search for another antenna solution. I may have to purchase one that mounts on top of the motorhome.

That's really not an issue, as long as I can get to the cable to run it to the radio. But, the problem is, I have limited roof-top to header clearance when backing the coach in and, driving it out. So, while using a 1/2 wave (around 41" or so) anywhere beyond our garage is ok, it's a problem with not only our garage but, each and every time I need to get fuel. The fuel stations island covers might not possibly play well with an antenna that high. So, I might be looking for something that does not exist.
And that is a shorter, say, 18"-20" high, Ham, 2m VHF antenna that I'd mount to the roof permanently. I've got a fiberglass roof so, a mag mount is out of the question. I won't mind making a mount plate of any design, so long as I can accomplish the goal. Anyway, you boys were warning me about the potential outcome of using a glass mount antenna. I used one before, with the ICOM IC2000 that's in the Jeep but, I don't think I ever checked the SWR on that, waaaaaaaaaay back when I did it.

So, I'll find out more tomorrow morning when this expert checks things out and we'll see if anything can be done, before I go and order another antenna.
Scott
 

k6cpo

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How old is the motorhome? Late model vehicles now come with passivated glass—to reduce the amount of UV radiation entering the vehicle—that makes a glass mount antenna impractical.
 

mmckenna

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Sorry to hear of the troubles.

Without seeing where it's mounted, it's hard to tell what's going on. If the glass has any tinting at all, there's a risk it might be metallic.
If the antenna is up against the RV side, there could be aluminum framing around the window that's causing the issues.

That said, if you cannot get it to work, I'd really recommend a simple 1/4 wave VHF on the roof. 19 inches tall and they are really flexible, so it won't hurt if they contact something. 1/4 wave antennas are very broad banded, so they work well over the 2 meter band, as well as receive well elsewhere.
A VHF 1/4 wave is 3/4 wave on UHF, so you can use these for dual band radios. I did it for years. Not ideal, but works good enough on UHF. SWR won't be an issue.

Mounting it on the roof will be the challenge. If you can get to the underside of the roof, you can use a "thick mount" NMO and a piece of sheet metal/hardware screen to provide the ground plane. You can also use some sheet aluminum and mount the antenna in the center, ideally 19" in each direction under the base of the antenna. Screw/glue/seal the sheet to the roof and you'll have your ground plane.

My brother in law mounted an NMO mount to his toy hauler trailer by attaching it to the side of the solar panels. You might have to make a trip up there and see what you can work with.
 
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FIREUP

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Hey mmckenna,
As usual, your analysis is always appreciated. You mentioned about ".....without seeing where it is mounted..." well, it's there, in the pictures a couple of posts before this one. You'll see it in the upper right corner of a side glass, that's just above my slider/stationary drivers window. It is clean, nicely placed mount. It's not in the way of anything, viewing outside or otherwise. And yes, there is tint built into the glass. I have no idea what the chemical makeup of the tinting INSIDE the glass is. Only a Winnebago engineer or, maybe even the glass/window supplier to Winnebago would know.
But, suffice to say, the SWR is so far out, that, there's really nothing that can be done, with that antenna and it's mounting system. So, "out the window" (so to speak) it goes. Now, here's the latest bulletin. My very well seasoned ham veteran buddy came over this morning and we pulled the motorhome outside so in our tests, we'd not be bouncing radio wave signals off the garage walls. My newly acquired SWR meter was still hooked up. He did the SWR test and confirmed, it was a hair over 10.1:1. NOT GOOD. So, He had his own meter that would analyze antennas and it would also inject different frequencies to see what an installed antenna likes, and dislikes. The best he could get was 4.1 : 1. So, we came up with another idea. I asked what he thought about a mag mount antenna with some sort of a short element.

He looked at me and said, "wait here". He went to his truck came right back with EXACTLY what I just asked for. It's a Tram, mag mount with an NMO mount base. Attached to that mag mount is a Diamond, NR 72BNMO dual band antenna that, is only 14" tall. He suggested that we try it and see what happens. Well, I happen to have a large metal plate secured to that fiberglass roof. And, sitting on that plate are my two air horns. So, I plopped that mag mount antenna, right in between those two air horns and ran the cable/coax inside to the radio. Now, before we did any actual radio testing, we did a SWR measurement. Guess what, 1.4:1 YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

So, we did a couple of transmissions to some local folks and, they thought we were standing right next to them. I used both low and high power. Now, even though I'm not a big fan of mag mount antennas, this one seems to be performing outstandingly and, it's only as stated, about 14.5" high. And, during those tests, both SWR and actual transmissions and receptions, it really didn't seem that my air horns, one on each side of the antenna, did any harm. So, as of now, I've ordered that Diamond NR 72B NMO antenna, along with the Tram 3 5/8" mag base with NMO mount with 17' of cable. Oh, and a couple of PL 259 ends. So, I should receive that order sometime tomorrow. Now, I know it's probably not what some of you might have done but, again, this is a motorhome, not a regular vehicle. Access to cable/coax, mounting, cable/coax runs, and all that, are the main challenges here. I'm not looking for a top tier performing system here. I'm just wanting to be able to get out some, and maybe talk to other RVers as we travel some and, maybe establish some local contacts when we find a campground in an new town or city some place.
Scott

Oh, and RRR, I most certainly appreciate your input here too. In the onset, since I had a small, Larsen glass mount waaaaaaay back quite a few years ago that was on the side of one of the windows on my VW beetle and, at that time, it seemed as though it worked great, I thought I'd be able to get away with it this time too. Well, as I've reported, it just didn't happen. I gave it the old "college try" as they say. So, I'm moving to plan B.
Scott
 
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jeepsandradios

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Depending on what you use for your terrestrial radio and how you can repurpose the mounting location. On our Winnebago I removed the AM/FM antenna as i never used the radio anyway other than the AUX cable. The antenna was actually mounted thru a metal plate that mounts to the aluminum frame. I installed a thick mount NMO and 1/4 wave antenna there. Works perfect. I did end up laying the AM/FM antenna in the attic area screwed to the frame. Its all fiberglass around it and works ok when i have needed it.
 

FIREUP

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Well Gang,
So far, with the ultra small, 14" mag mount antenna, the radio's been working flawlessly. I had to cut the end off the coax so I could push it through the grommet that I forced into the hole I drilled in the fiberglass roof. It's all as snug as a bug in a rug. And then, I put some self leveling Dicor sealer all around it so, no rain can get in, if it wanted to. Then I ran the cable down and over to the radio. Good thing I didn't cut too much 'cause I really didn't have a lot to spare when I installed the new PL 259 connector. Once installed and connected to my new SWR & Power meter, I got a 1.2:1 match. Great! At present, no issues so, I think I'm all done with this project.
 

K5mow

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I absolutely love my Kenwood TM 281. This is the radio I use in my vehicle and it works flawlessly.

Roger



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

FIREUP

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Hey, thanks for the encouragement on the TM-281. So far, I'm very pleased with its performance in the limited time and use I've experienced with it.
Scott
 

WB9YBM

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Gang,
HRO and I think one other seller is on its last day of a sale for various products. And, I'm thinking of purchasing the Kenwood TM-281 single band 2M mobile for the motor home. At present, I'm not looking for a ton of bells and whistles. I'd just like alternate forms of communications when traveling. I spoke with one of the lead people at HRO on this radio and, for the most part, he claims is a seriously rugged radio for race people, off roaders etc. As stated, it's the last day of the sale and it's going for $137.00. Now, as for a possible antenna. So far, I'm thinking of this:

PulseLarsen KG-144-UDPL Antenna Mobile Single 2M, KG144UDPL

I'm not one that gets squirmish about drilling holes in bodies of cars/trucks/motorhomes etc. for antenna leads and other stuff. Not a big deal. But, based on logistics, I have a stationary window, that's above my drivers side slider. The upper, front corner is about 18"-20" below the roof line. If I were to mount that Larsen glass mount at that upper corner, that 47" element would be, for the first 18"-20", parallel to the motorhome, about 2" or so inches away from it. Then, the remaining part of that antenna would be up in the open air. But, and here's maybe a critical part. If that Larsen is placed in the fashion I'm describing, it will reside approximately 18"-20" away from my C/B antenna which, is almost directly above the driver but forward a bit, mounted on the roof top. So, I know it's really not a good practice to have the two antennas as close as they may end up but, for "decent" performance of that radio, will the antenna situation be Ok or not? I say "decent" because, again, I know the close proximity of the two antennas could and most likely WILL cause poor performance.

This specific antenna is recommended by the knowledgeable person at HRO due to its length, i.e. 1/2 wave. But, again, it's radiance is "partially" obstructed by the side of the coach. So, your thoughts? By the way, I have 'till this evening at about 5:00 P.M. to still purchase this radio on sale.
Scott

I used a through-glass antenna before and had some bad luck with it--couldn't get the SWR as low as with more standard type antennas. I'm not sure if all brands are that bad--I guess I've got an "approach with caution" attitude about them...
 

W2MB

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Gang,
HRO and I think one other seller is on its last day of a sale for various products. And, I'm thinking of purchasing the Kenwood TM-281 single band 2M mobile for the motor home. At present, I'm not looking for a ton of bells and whistles. I'd just like alternate forms of communications when traveling. I spoke with one of the lead people at HRO on this radio and, for the most part, he claims is a seriously rugged radio for race people, off roaders etc. As stated, it's the last day of the sale and it's going for $137.00. Now, as for a possible antenna. So far, I'm thinking of this:

PulseLarsen KG-144-UDPL Antenna Mobile Single 2M, KG144UDPL

I'm not one that gets squirmish about drilling holes in bodies of cars/trucks/motorhomes etc. for antenna leads and other stuff. Not a big deal. But, based on logistics, I have a stationary window, that's above my drivers side slider. The upper, front corner is about 18"-20" below the roof line. If I were to mount that Larsen glass mount at that upper corner, that 47" element would be, for the first 18"-20", parallel to the motorhome, about 2" or so inches away from it. Then, the remaining part of that antenna would be up in the open air. But, and here's maybe a critical part. If that Larsen is placed in the fashion I'm describing, it will reside approximately 18"-20" away from my C/B antenna which, is almost directly above the driver but forward a bit, mounted on the roof top. So, I know it's really not a good practice to have the two antennas as close as they may end up but, for "decent" performance of that radio, will the antenna situation be Ok or not? I say "decent" because, again, I know the close proximity of the two antennas could and most likely WILL cause poor performance.

This specific antenna is recommended by the knowledgeable person at HRO due to its length, i.e. 1/2 wave. But, again, it's radiance is "partially" obstructed by the side of the coach. So, your thoughts? By the way, I have 'till this evening at about 5:00 P.M. to still purchase this radio on sale.
Scott

Scott

I just installed a TM-281A and KG144UPDL on a 2019 Ram pickup. The antenna is mounted as high as possible on the right side of the rear window which is factory tinted tempered glass with defroster wires etched onto the interior side of the glass. I confirmed with the glass manufacturer that the tinting was of non-metallic composition. The antenna is an end fed 1/2 wave with impedance matching transformer capacitively coupled thru the glass. At least 33” of the whip is above the roof line.

This is my first experience with a glass mount antenna. I went with the Larsen brand because of previous positive experiences with their products. I can say that my experience with this installation is very positive and that it’s performance compares to a quarter wave magnetically mounted roof antenna with appropriate ground plane. Both theoretically have unity gain. This works so well that I am hesitant check the reflected power as ignorance is bliss. Obviously this antenna design is a compromise and I’ve been told that a vswr of 2.0:1 is common. Some day I’ll get out the Bird and check it, maybe..

All considered, I can see no benefit to making a 3/4” hole in the roof to use an NMO permanent mount.

Mark, W2MB
 
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