can someone add the Lake fire to your scanner feed. Thanks
lake fire
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scottyhetzel
Member
The fire started at a church by jenks lake.... Wildcad has all the resource information... Lot of plumbs of smoke in the coachella valley near the Joshua tree park mountains...
ko6jw_2
Member
Here is another link for fire information and maps.
InciWeb the Incident Information System: Lake Fire
InciWeb the Incident Information System: Lake Fire
scottyhetzel
Member
The following is very active from 38 plus miles away...
CDF rotowing
CDF Fed 2
CDF Air Tacs New
Thanks for the link KO6JW...
CDF rotowing
CDF Fed 2
CDF Air Tacs New
Thanks for the link KO6JW...
Hey Scotty, what is "CDF Fed 2?"
scottyhetzel
Member
Hi Fred....CDF Fed 2 is 168.7375... Not sure where I got it from. However it was active..
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They are using 168.7375 as air to ground command.
As of this morning’s briefing:
Acres Burned: 15,000
Structures Threatened: 400
Containment: 10%
Engines: 91
Crews: 31
Helicopters: 16 (7-T1/7-T2/2-T3)
Fixed Wing: 7 (including 2 lead plane, 4 air-tankers and 1 DC-10)
Water Tenders: 6
Dozers: 5
Total personnel assigned to the Fire: 1343
Unfortunately, the air resources are having to contend with the Presidential TFR in place for Obama’s golfing weekend in Palm Springs.
As of this morning’s briefing:
Acres Burned: 15,000
Structures Threatened: 400
Containment: 10%
Engines: 91
Crews: 31
Helicopters: 16 (7-T1/7-T2/2-T3)
Fixed Wing: 7 (including 2 lead plane, 4 air-tankers and 1 DC-10)
Water Tenders: 6
Dozers: 5
Total personnel assigned to the Fire: 1343
Unfortunately, the air resources are having to contend with the Presidential TFR in place for Obama’s golfing weekend in Palm Springs.
scottyhetzel
Member
The TFR should be dropped...on the outer ring...I believe fire/law/air medical is exempt... He rolls in here around 11:00. Big foot active right now...
A trend has started, I believe mainly in California, to have a command air to ground and a tactical air to ground. Command air to ground is for the IC, all of the honchos in aviation, the operations chief, branch directors and division supervisors to talk about strategy and longer term use of air resources. Tactical air to ground is used by division sups and below (strike team leaders, hotshot crew superintendents, Type II crew bosses and other individual resources such as engines and dozers) to provide details about where and how retardant and water is dropped on fires as well as speak about helispot location and construction.
The other trend is to split up the operations chief position into "ops" and "planning ops." Planning ops is involved in what resources are needed where, what the assignments should be on each division, etc. This allows the operations chief to concentrate on the current situation instead of focusing on what the planning section needs to write up the next incident action plan (AKA shift plan). I've not worked a fire where a planning ops is used so I really can't explain it in much more detail than that, at least from experience. I worked in plans on many fires, most often as a resource unit leader and it was often difficult to get the ops chief to take enough time to tell us what he needed for the next shift and what the resources needed to do. Errors and inefficiencies would creep into the plan, where they didn't always get the right crews to the areas they were needed. Sometimes ops wanted specific crews to work specific locations so they might say something like we need the Wyoming Hotshots on the north end of Division C, the San Carlos Shots in the center of the division and the Crane Valley Shots on the south end to conduct such things as burnouts, backfires if needed, hot fireline construction and a host of other tasks reserved for Type I crews. If these three crews had worked together on that division and on a specific ridge the ops chief wants those three back in the same spot. If ops doesn't keep track and give that to planning, the form used to develop the plan may only show that 3 Type I crews are needed on Division C, 6 on Division F and 1 on Division X. Some details such as keeping the the three specific crews on Division C even if that means having fewer Type I crews on Division F. In the heat of the battle such details may not get communicated effectively, leading to problems on subsequent shifts. I've been yelled at for not putting the right crews in the right places because the information I was given was vague or passed along with so many other details in such a short period I could not write it down effectively. Ops chiefs are always being interrupted by radio traffic and trying to talk with them is tough and the two planning meetings a day might not provide the opportunity to get these specifics passed along. Having a liaison between ops and plans helps reduce such problems.
It is a real challenge to manage a highly dynamic situation with several hundred or several thousand people who have not worked together in the same combinations on land many have never seen before. The core of the incident management teams remains fairly constant, but the entire staffing of the fire will always be a bit different even if many of the same crews, apparatus, supply units etc. have worked together on other fires before. Getting everyone organized to do exactly what is needed is a challenge, especially when the team first arrives along with huge numbers of other resources during the period or periods fires are moving quickly and blowing up. Recon information is often hard to come by as it is tough to get people to the right locations at the right times to observe the fire and list such things as fences, roads, potential safety zones, water sources, changes in vegetation types, on and on and on. Keeping field observers safe, who often work alone, is challenging as well. Local folks often have some very good information, but they are often taking care of other matters that pile up when they have a major incident on land they manage on the long term.
The reward is making order out of chaos, keeping in mind that the three best things about fires are: going there, the trip home and getting paid.
Hello Exsmokey and All: I have at times tracked the "Supervisor" who flies around a fire giving direction to other aircraft and ground units during a fire. Using three or more scanners to track his transmissions.
Very impressive as the "Supervisor" is on air to air VHF, air to Ground VHF, Aero Band VHF Frequencies and uses his cell phone at times. Another impressive ability is his personality to direct "Pilots" of known self esteem and self centered manner at times. BROVO!
Jay in the Mojave
Very impressive as the "Supervisor" is on air to air VHF, air to Ground VHF, Aero Band VHF Frequencies and uses his cell phone at times. Another impressive ability is his personality to direct "Pilots" of known self esteem and self centered manner at times. BROVO!
Jay in the Mojave
The supervisor you speak of is called the Air Tactical Group Supervisor. The prescribed radio designator is "Air Attack." Air attack is followed by the name of the fire they are assigned to or when on initial attack, in California, they follow air attack with the number of the national forest they are assigned to. The Forest Service in California has air attacks stationed on the Klamath (Air Attack 05), the Lassen (Air Attack 06), the Los Padres (Air Attack 07), the San Bernardino (Air Attack 12), the Sierra (Air Attack 15) and the Tahoe (Air Attack 17). Air attack 51 is stationed at Fox Field near Lancaster and is called "Night Air Attack." After the Station Fire on the Angeles NF the Forest Service agreed to evaluate nighttime air operations. There are two additional Forest Service helicopter based air attack units, one at each ops center. Cal Fire has 12 air attack units out on their units and 5 additional available units at McClellan near Sacramento.
Air attack planes fly above all of the aircraft on the fire and function as the coordinator for all the tasks that has been asked of aviation. An air attack supervisor is required any time there are three or more aircraft assigned to a fire. Air attack is also responsible for air traffic control and flight following while aircraft are in the area of the fire. When tankers are ordered to load and return, load and hold and are released from the fire they then contact dispatch to set up flight following.
Air attack is responsible for the management of the "Fire Traffic Area." A diagram of this area and how it is operated is available at the following link:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/sacc/logistics/aircraft/PMS505_FTA-Card-2013_FINAL-2up.pdf
Air traffic control occurs on the VHF AM Air to Air frequencies. Discussion of where a tanker or helo is going to drop is done on air tactics as is the communication between lead planes and tankers. Requests for retardant and water drops are made on air to ground. That is a lot to keep track of, especially on very large fires. The idea behind having a command air to ground and a tactical air to ground is meant to reduce the amount of traffic air attack and other command personnel on a fire have to listen to. The two positions that have to listen to more radio traffic than any other positions on the fire are division supervisors and air attack. Division sups have to listen to command and tactical at the same time as they are part of the command organization and are directing resources involved in tactical tasks. From a mental standpoint air attack personnel have a tough job. It is very dynamic situation and every decision involves life and death factors.
When I flew air patrol on each of the 4 national forests I worked on I had a clipboard that strapped around my thigh. I would keep track of each fire I called in and the resources assigned to them. Another duty was to direct ground resources into fires. I imagine white boards on each thigh or some type of dashboard mounted white boards used to keep track of everything. It must get pretty wild in the cockpit given they have to communicate on air tactics, air to ground, air to air AM and forest net as well. Often times dispatch contacts air attack directly with communications from the ops centers as well as messages from air tanker bases. It is hard to monitor forest net given how many other frequencies to be monitored and the amount of traffic on each. On large fires this traffic might be carried on the NIFC command system set up on the fire. If the fire is large the ops chief and incident communications cannot contact air attack on air to ground, so the command system repeater(s) have to be used. If contact can't be made by any other means you might hear dispatch calling air attack on air guard.
Air attack planes fly above all of the aircraft on the fire and function as the coordinator for all the tasks that has been asked of aviation. An air attack supervisor is required any time there are three or more aircraft assigned to a fire. Air attack is also responsible for air traffic control and flight following while aircraft are in the area of the fire. When tankers are ordered to load and return, load and hold and are released from the fire they then contact dispatch to set up flight following.
Air attack is responsible for the management of the "Fire Traffic Area." A diagram of this area and how it is operated is available at the following link:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/sacc/logistics/aircraft/PMS505_FTA-Card-2013_FINAL-2up.pdf
Air traffic control occurs on the VHF AM Air to Air frequencies. Discussion of where a tanker or helo is going to drop is done on air tactics as is the communication between lead planes and tankers. Requests for retardant and water drops are made on air to ground. That is a lot to keep track of, especially on very large fires. The idea behind having a command air to ground and a tactical air to ground is meant to reduce the amount of traffic air attack and other command personnel on a fire have to listen to. The two positions that have to listen to more radio traffic than any other positions on the fire are division supervisors and air attack. Division sups have to listen to command and tactical at the same time as they are part of the command organization and are directing resources involved in tactical tasks. From a mental standpoint air attack personnel have a tough job. It is very dynamic situation and every decision involves life and death factors.
When I flew air patrol on each of the 4 national forests I worked on I had a clipboard that strapped around my thigh. I would keep track of each fire I called in and the resources assigned to them. Another duty was to direct ground resources into fires. I imagine white boards on each thigh or some type of dashboard mounted white boards used to keep track of everything. It must get pretty wild in the cockpit given they have to communicate on air tactics, air to ground, air to air AM and forest net as well. Often times dispatch contacts air attack directly with communications from the ops centers as well as messages from air tanker bases. It is hard to monitor forest net given how many other frequencies to be monitored and the amount of traffic on each. On large fires this traffic might be carried on the NIFC command system set up on the fire. If the fire is large the ops chief and incident communications cannot contact air attack on air to ground, so the command system repeater(s) have to be used. If contact can't be made by any other means you might hear dispatch calling air attack on air guard.
Heard on one of the Air Tactics frequencies at the Lake fire the other day:
Air Attack 12: "Ok, Kevin, when you come around, watch your wing tip on that rock outcropping there."
Tanker ??: "Ok, but I'm Jack, not Kevin."
Air Attack 12: "Jack, Kevin. Whatever. All you guys up here sound alike."
Tanker ??: "Tell you what... If it's a good drop, you can call me Jack. If it's a bad drop, just call me Kevin."
Heterodynes from multiple transmitters and laughing.
Air Attack 12: "Ok, Kevin, when you come around, watch your wing tip on that rock outcropping there."
Tanker ??: "Ok, but I'm Jack, not Kevin."
Air Attack 12: "Jack, Kevin. Whatever. All you guys up here sound alike."
Tanker ??: "Tell you what... If it's a good drop, you can call me Jack. If it's a bad drop, just call me Kevin."
Heterodynes from multiple transmitters and laughing.
Hello Exsmokey and zz0468: Great postings! Thanks.
The "Air Tactical Group Supervisor" is a great guy with the ability and personality to handle the air drop pilots as zz0468 has mentioned, a special quality.
Again thanks X-Smky for that well written job description, I certainly hope the supervisor doesn't have to also fly the airplane....
While monitoring a local fire I will chase as many Comm's as possibly with three scanners and I have heard the supervisor all over the place. As you said he gives status and equipment requirements for the existing fire, and the next days requirements, to I believe to some sort of command center.
I scan/search the Aero VHF and Gov VHF bands and write down the frequencies as some fires take a few days to contain, allowing one scanner to catch most of all the Comm's.
Jay in the Mojave
The "Air Tactical Group Supervisor" is a great guy with the ability and personality to handle the air drop pilots as zz0468 has mentioned, a special quality.
Again thanks X-Smky for that well written job description, I certainly hope the supervisor doesn't have to also fly the airplane....
While monitoring a local fire I will chase as many Comm's as possibly with three scanners and I have heard the supervisor all over the place. As you said he gives status and equipment requirements for the existing fire, and the next days requirements, to I believe to some sort of command center.
I scan/search the Aero VHF and Gov VHF bands and write down the frequencies as some fires take a few days to contain, allowing one scanner to catch most of all the Comm's.
Jay in the Mojave
jazzbassNick
Member
The ATGS is not the pilot for the ship. If I remember right the pilot is a full time Forest Service employee and the aircraft is agency owned as well. It would not be safe for the ATGS to fly the plane as the entire operation has to be observed at all times. In order to keep track of everything below the plane is a high wing model. Lead planes are low winged and they have a permanent full time pilot and the plane is owned by the Forest Service. Smokejumper aircraft are also agency pilots and ownership. The Forest Service used to have a number of DC-3's as well.
I flew in a BLM DC-3 from Albuquerque to Medford for a fire assignment. I could have sworn that some little sports cars were passing us on the highways below us as we crossed Nevada! We had some boxed lunches when we left Albuquerque and saw the sunset over Mt. Shasta. I don't remember how late lunch was, but that indicates how slowly the DC-3 flew. When we returned there weren't enough aircraft available so they chartered a United Airlines jet complete with flight attendants. They fed us steak dinners on board too! Like is said so often the best things about fires are traveling to them, coming home and getting paid.
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