• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

Last of the scanners: Are police security measures and new technologies killing an American obsession?

zz0468

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Again, my point of view is that there is no "perfect" system given enough time and technological advancement it is more likely than not to be defeated.. Others may disagree.
Its probably safe to say that listening to encrypted systems will not be possible on a hobbyist level, regardless of the state of the art within academia, or commercial interests.
 

Hans13

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Its probably safe to say that listening to encrypted systems will not be possible on a hobbyist level, regardless of the state of the art within academia, or commercial interests.
You may very well be correct. IMHO, the odds are definitely in favor of that statement.
 

12dbsinad

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All this mantra aside, with the transition to LTE/5G, LMR itself will be declining in use, especially in large cities. Encryption is "built in" and the nature of the network really make third party interception both improbable and nearly impossible, without the use of sophisticated equipment and expertise. The writing is on the wall. But this doesn't mean scanning is dead. Plenty of good stuff to listen to: aircraft comms, railroads, commercial stuff, amateur radio, GMRS, etc.
There is nobody out there that is going to scrap their LMR systems anytime soon, including large city's. Firstnet, etc, even acknowledge that LTE is a supplement to LMR and is not intended to be competition. Maybe some day in the next 50 years public safety will entrust their lives to a cellular network owned by a for profit nationwide company. LMR encryption will LONG rid of the scanner hobbyist before worry about LTE. Just look at NYPD... soon to be the big E.

I remember back in the early 90's when IDEN was supposed to be the latest and greatest and everyone was going to migrate to it including public safety agencies. That didn't happen either..
 

GlacierClipper

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I believe that the Scanning hobby is slowly fading away for many reasons. New technology has always changed many things including the Scanning hobby. Sooner or later the modern technology in radio communications will be at the doorsteps of the poor and rural communities all across the USA.
 

MTS2000des

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There is nobody out there that is going to scrap their LMR systems anytime soon, including large city's. Firstnet, etc, even acknowledge that LTE is a supplement to LMR and is not intended to be competition. Maybe some day in the next 50 years public safety will entrust their lives to a cellular network owned by a for profit nationwide company..
iDEN wasn't designed to be a public safety solution. First NET is. 50 years? Don't think so. Having just worked SB53, my agency got a cache of 40 First NET Sonim XP8s and used them extensively. They worked flawlessly (as did our AS25 7.16). Saw a ton of Wave radios (not Bose, Motorola!).

As far as "trusting a for profit company" it's no different than the big dollar mutli-million contracts agencies have with LMR vendors. The dependency is the same. In Houston, they suffered loss to their sites during Harvey, the impact is the same. Commercial carriers are tooling up to support public safety for the same reasons companies like MSI: there is money in it.
 

12dbsinad

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iDEN wasn't designed to be a public safety solution. First NET is. 50 years? Don't think so. Having just worked SB53, my agency got a cache of 40 First NET Sonim XP8s and used them extensively. They worked flawlessly (as did our AS25 7.16). Saw a ton of Wave radios (not Bose, Motorola!).
My point is First NET is not even to the point of being "mission critical" that LMR systems provide. They know that. In every mission critical article I've ever read also supports this. Until that changes, you're not going to see replacement of LMR systems. There are characteristics of LMR that LTE isn't going to be able to replicate very easily, one being high power simplex.


As far as "trusting a for profit company" it's no different than the big dollar mutli-million contracts agencies have with LMR vendors. The dependency is the same. In Houston, they suffered loss to their sites during Harvey, the impact is the same. Commercial carriers are tooling up to support public safety for the same reasons companies like MSI: there is money in it.
I beg to differ. Many large Cities like Boston, NY, etc already have their own in-house radio dept. Though a lot is sub contracted out like tower/site work, they work for the agency and manage the system and do tons of in-house stuff. They have the city's best interest at heart. They own their equipment. Do you think AT&T is going to be able to provide that? Basically, you rent airtime regardless if you like it or not, with zero direct control of the system.

Until a direct mode is established, LTE immediately falls short, even in a city environment. I've done work in the mid-west during the aftermath of many tornadoes. The only thing left was the mobile radios in the trucks. 100 watt simplex back to the command post saved lives because it was instant and relatively long range right after the touchdown. These are the things that the majority of the country come to rely on and come to expect. Non of which any cellular carrier can provide.

Agree or disagree, I'd be worrying about LMR encryption before and large takeover of LTE as far as scanners are concerned.
 

slicerwizard

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Simple logic dictates that given enough time and technological advancement, any system can theoretically be cracked.
A one time pad is a system. It's not crackable. So much for your logic.

AES does not exist in isolation; it is combined with physical devices and fallible humans. That total "system" gets compromised from time to time already and it's not done by cracking AES. Far, far easier to defeat the physical implementation, i.e. acquire physical access to a keyed device and clone it or Tempest attack it, or just bribe the right technician to sell you the key or a keyed radio. Your links to related-key attacks, etc. just cloud this issue and don't support your stated point. You've also shown how little you actually know about encryption and how some vendors (largely) properly implement it. In short, you're arguing from ignorance and accusing others of trying to force you to change your (uninformed) mind. We know you're not going to do that, but it doesn't stop us from pointing out the jibber jabber.

BTW, IMO any device susceptible to a Tempest attack is a joke, pretty much on par with a password on a sticky note hanging off a monitor.

TLDR: If you want to monitor P25 AES calls, bribe a radio tech. It's far cheaper than any of that "research" you said you'd like to fund.
 

Hans13

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A one time pad is a system. It's not crackable. So much for your logic.
Very true but no need to be a jackass about it just because you couldn't read English earlier in the thread. I'll ignore the rest from you as your intent and character in this discussion is clear. :)
 

hitechRadio

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Okay. Not probable is not the same as not possible. Simple logic dictates that given enough time and technological advancement, any system can theoretically be cracked.
By the time AES could be cracked, public safety would not even know what AES is. Assuming by that time, we humans are still around.
 

Hans13

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I will add that true quantum computing might be able to crack AES one day. Then again, quantum encryption would likely take its place. How that works on a handheld radio is anybody''s guess.
 

Hans13

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Yep. I think that's where much of the unauthorized listening will likely come from.
 

ohiodesperado

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I have seen some that have commented about decrypting DES. And I know that it's been cracked in the computer arena, but the issue is that you have something to work to decrypting a data file. Data files, like a excel spreadsheet, or any other file, will have a header that is consistent in all excel files. So you know that when you launch a brute force crack of the file you can look for the header information as a key to break the encryption. With audio it's different. If you listen to a digital auto encrypted stream you have noise. Noise is still audio. you have to test a brute force hack against a known audio stream to know you have it broken. If you have that, then there is no point. So decrypting digital audio streams is pointless, it really can't be done.
 

safetyobc

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I think it is definitely changing the way we monitor. When I started just 15 years ago, everything in my area was in the clear and analog. Now most local PD agencies are using DMR encrypted comms. The only police agency anywhere near me not encrypted is the state police and they are on the statewide AWIN system. I can't hear 80% of what I used to hear on open comms. Even regular PD dispatch channels around me are encrypted. Once they go encrypted, they never come back to the open. I see the trend continuing. Maybe some of the larger departments will stay in the clear for the near future. But a lot of smaller ones, with less equipment to change out, will likely go encrypted if given the chance.
 

kayn1n32008

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So decrypting digital audio streams is pointless, it really can't be done.
It has been done.

DES is welfare with its 56bit key space. DES is almost 42 years old. While a hobbies is not defeating it at home, a dedicated adversary, with resources is going to defeat it.


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stlouisx50

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The Grand Jury. That's actually their job, not some guy with a scanner.
That's not policing at all. That allows potential unlawful & policy breaking activity that no court will enforce. Judges favor law enforcement and other officials with much more leeway over what they give the public in wrongdoing. Police agencies who go encrypted along with fire and ems have much longer delays in assists due to majority of the time not running the same encryption codes. That's what makes encryption dangerous!
 

kayn1n32008

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Police agencies who go encrypted along with fire and ems have much longer delays in assists due to majority of the time not running the same encryption codes. That's what makes encryption dangerous!
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mule1075

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That's not policing at all. That allows potential unlawful & policy breaking activity that no court will enforce. Judges favor law enforcement and other officials with much more leeway over what they give the public in wrongdoing. Police agencies who go encrypted along with fire and ems have much longer delays in assists due to majority of the time not running the same encryption codes. That's what makes encryption dangerous!
Umm yeah ok. Please some links to unlawful and policy breaking would help but I am guessing some BS smoke blowing. And before asking i am a feed provider. Terrible to see tinfoil hats.And obviously you are uneducated how encryption and Radio systems work. I will be waiting for a reply.
 
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