LCRA 900 MHz to OpenSky; San Antonio to P25

[texasemt13]

Pg. 115: 4.2.7.1.1 The following table depicts the user agencies on the Guadalupe County radio system:"

Listed first is "Gillespie County." Then it goes on, in the same section to state "Frio County fire/EMS agencies are dispatched via pagers and the east or west side dispatch channel as appropriate."

I hope their "draft" gets reviewed well before release to the AACOG, this is almost pitiful in some spots. Gillespie & Frio counties are mentioned in the Guadalupe County section.

 

[texasemt13]

Pg. 182: "Since most agencies within AACOG operate in the VHF band, shared channels allow for effective interoperability communications between these agencies. The most severe interoperability gaps arise between users in different frequency bands that cannot utilize shared channels."

They then go on to say...

"Interoperability on shared channels becomes more limited with the introduction of different modulation schemes. As radio systems upgrade to P25 conventional or trunking, these channels can no longer be shared with adjacent jurisdictions that operate analog only radios."

I don't think these guys quite understand the purpose of these shared channels. The older, legacy ones are for analog only. The newest ones are for P25 only. Why does this create a problem? If nothing else, buy mixed mode capable repeaters to allow the analog users to participate.

"As radio systems upgrade to P25 conventional or trunking, these channels can no longer be shared with adjacent jurisdictions that operate analog only radios."

Shared channels have nothing to do with trunking. All trunking radios also support conventional programming. If they have to used a shared channel for interop, and the other agency is not in the same band- use P25 modulation for everything. This allows the cross-band patching with gateways, that work.

And further, the whole reason P25 was created was to help allow interop between bands by creating a common protocol.

 

[blantonl]

Could someone distill some of the communications system information in the doc and determine what needs to be updated in the database?

 

[texasemt13]

Pg. 207/208: "The Wide Area Interoperability System (WAIS) is a Raytheon solution that has been implemented within AACOG. The system includes a Raytheon/JPS ACU1000 located at most PSAPs throughout the COG. The ACU1000 gateway has been interfaced with mobile radios in the VHF, UHF, 700 MHz and 800 MHz bands.

The system is not operational throughout many PSAPs in AACOG. Equipment has either not been set up or is not configured properly. In some cases the equipment is still in the original packaging.

Training on the WAIS consoles has been insufficient to familiarize dispatchers with use of the system. There are no locations within AACOG that use the WAIS system on a regular basis.

The WAIS console is a separate piece of equipment from the dispatch console. Because it is rarely used, dispatchers are not familiar with it.

Radios on the WAIS systems are currently interfaced with low profile antennas of the roofs of the dispatch centers. These antennas do not provide adequate coverage to support a patched based system.

Subscriber radios interfaced with the WAIS system are not P25 capable. Patching connectivity is limited to analog only systems.

This goes to show just that no matter how much money you spend, training is what it all comes down to.

 

[texasemt13]

Could someone distill some of the communications system information in the doc and determine what needs to be updated in the database?

Lindsay,

I can start on it. If someone else would like to take a few counties that would be great. I'll start with Comal and Guadalupe counties, then work south around Bexar County clockwise, and end in Bexar (the hardest for sure). If anyone would like to pick up some of those, that'd be good.

 

[texasemt13]

LCRA's position

Pg. 210/211: "LCRA has proposed an interoperability solution to the AACOG region to build out a 700 MHz trunking overlay for public safety primary use which closely aligns with these goals. The system would utilize the existing Harris VIDA core purchased by LCRA. LCRA would manage construction of the system, which would utilize radio sites and backhaul currently used in the 900 MHz LCRA EDACS system.

The LCRA 900 MHz footprint currently covers six counties within the AACOG region. Upgrading the system would require installing 700 MHz trunking infrastructure at each of these locations. For those AACOG counties not covered by the LCRA footprint, LCRA has proposed developing new radio sites to expand the system and provide backhaul connectivity to the existing system. As proposed, the system will utilize 11 radio sites for those counties within the LCRA 900 MHz footprint. Nine additional radio sites will be developed in the five counties currently un-served by LCRA. As proposed, the system will provide between 89-99 percent mobile coverage throughout AACOG, and 64-92 percent portable coverage. No plans have been considered to expand the LCRA footprint into Bexar County as a 700 MHz overlay is already planned. Emphasis in bold is my own.

This has been my understanding the entire time, that the LCRA 700MHz is not associated with the SAUA 700MHz overlay. I really think we should change the name of the current SAUA in our database and will be submitting this later.

So, it doesn't sound like any public safety users will be going to LCRA's OpenSky system (yet).

 

[texasemt13]

Recommendations begin on page 212, and I like there second one the best, but that's just me.

There is some more good info on LCRA's plans on page 219, including the eventual expansion in to Atascosa, Wilson, Medina, Frio, Karnes and Bandera counties.

Expect tower leasing agreements in those counties in 3rd quarter 2011.

4th quarter 2012 is the expected date of completing P25 hase II installations for sites serving current public safety users on LCRA.

700MHz P25 sites commence with public safety traffic, being transferred from the EDACS system from July 2014 to December 2014.

From what I gather (they're kind of vague here), LCRA will have 14 700MHz sites after it's all said and done (so far), and 2 of those will be existing sites serving current users in AACOG. I'd imagine those might be New Braunfels, then the Kendall site.

 

[texasemt13]

I've finished it. I'm glad it's their draft because it has plenty of mistakes, mostly little oversights that can be fixed with good proofreading.

Thank you Russell for finding this, it has been invaluable. There is a lot of information that should be added to the respective Database pages and Wikis, and as I said earlier, I'll start the process and if others could help out. It'd be great.

 

[texasemt13]

In case it isn't clear, all Bexar County users, and possibly the entire Live Oak EDACS TRS will be going to the ProVoice TRS. The SAUA 700MHz P25 Overlay will help create interoperability talkgroups that will be interfaced with the 800MHz ProVoice w/ ESK TRS talkgroups, specifically established for this purpose (maybe reusing some interop talkgroups on this system). This will allow SAUA's 700MHz Overlay to be interoperable with LCRA's 700MHz Overlay, which will be extended into the rest of AACOG in the future.

LCRA is implementing an OpenSky TRS for themselves, and non-public safety users who wish to subscribe. Eventually, (2014) the EDACS TRS will be shutdown. Public Safety users will have to switch to the LCRA 700MHz P25 Overlay by then, or figure out another solution. The way this document makes it sound, no public safety users will be on LCRA's OpenSky.

A few counties are already lookng into NEXEDGE. Kendall County was denied funding for a NEXEDGE system initially (and I hope the others will be too).

Most of the southern/western rural counties are looking into P25, most on VHF. All of these systems will tie into the 70MHz P25 Overlay of LCRA's, in order to achieve an AACOG wide semblance of interoperability.

 

[Russell]

EMT,

Exceptional work on analysis of the document. I knew you would know more than I did. I read it and didn't glean near the data you did out of it.

I think the jury is still out on the name of the 700 MHz system. While I agree LCRA has no plans to extend their 900 MHz system south of the line, I still think the current portion of the 700 MHz overlay is the same overlay as planned for San Antonio and AACOG. Especially in light of it's coverage of the hurricane evacuation routes from Houston to SA and the number of sites in the 19 to 24 range where LCRA only has 13 on their existing towers. The VIDA switch already in place should be able to handle the remaining sites planned for the AACOG areas. We should, however, add system notes regarding the SAUA 700 MHz overlay will be operated by LCRA and acknowledge their role in the overlay. Maybe a combination of the names is in order as the entire clearly extends beyond the SA Urban Area.

Russell

 

[texasemt13]

I think the jury is still out on the name of the 700 MHz system.

Agreed.

While I agree LCRA has no plans to extend their 900 MHz system south of the line, I still think the current portion of the 700 MHz overlay is the same overlay as planned for San Antonio and AACOG.

The document notes that they'll be separate overlays, but of course they'll be intimately tied, since LCRA is basically going to step in to the rest of AACOG.

Especially in light of it's coverage of the hurricane evacuation routes from Houston to SA and the number of sites in the 19 to 24 range where LCRA only has 13 on their existing towers.

LCRA has 13 currently, and many of these are not in AACOG (two are confirmed in AACOG). The map on page 219 shows LCRA's projected expansion into AACOG with general site locations. It shows 20 site locations, and of those 11 will be at current sites (Comal, New B, Kendall, Boerne, Doss, Fburg, Kingsbury, Kerr, Junction, Llano & one unidentified site in Bandera County). The other 9 are proposed in Bandera, Real, Medina, Frio, Atascosa, Wilson and Karnes counties. Not one LCRA site looks like it will be in Bexar County.

The VIDA switch already in place should be able to handle the remaining sites planned for the AACOG areas. We should, however, add system notes regarding the SAUA 700 MHz overlay will be operated by LCRA and acknowledge their role in the overlay.

Agreed. From what I gathered, SA's overlay will use LCRA's VIDA switch.

Maybe a combination of the names is in order as the entire clearly extends beyond the SA Urban Area.

Agreed. We'll only know more about the two systems when the the San Antonio Overlay comes up and we can see some sight numbers. Identifying talkgroups across these two systems could be interesting.

 

[SCPD]

I am by no means an expert but I think we are spending way too much on radio systems for the sole purpose of interop capabilities.

Were not, These are Grants paying for most of this stuff.

On another note - Since Open Sky is NOT scan-able and obtaining a System Key will be an act of god, I think LCRA will become Secure finally.

Time to buy stock in a French island in the Caribbean ..

 

[zerg901]

As of May 30 2012, the report is available here - http://www.aacog.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/337

Or here - https://docs.google.com/open?id=1vQ7EpF9Wjpbor_MDfUFeKi2t7NzTCGF5HDO6wrlFy9_gtcil_lxe1mO2LnzE

 

[Michael-SATX]

LCRA EDACS LCN's moved over to LCRA OpenSky sites

Well, I went on a road trip yesterday and took the time to analyze 5 LCRA sites for accuracy.

I found 4 out of the 5 sites have changed, due to LCN's removed and now part of OpenSky sites.

This site was correct as listed in the RR DB:
LCRA EDACS Site # 007 (7) New Braunfels (NEW_BRAN) Comal 01 935.5000 02 936.4500 03 937.8875c
04 938.4000 05 939.4250 06 936.9000 07 937.4000 08 938.1500
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
These 4 sites below just need minor editing to be correct as analyzed and doubled verfied:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LCRA EDACS Site # 027 (1B) Comal County (COMAL_CO) Comal 01 935.7000c 02 936.7000 03 937.2500
04 937.7250 05 939.9375
1)-(Delete LCN#6 935.2000 which is also listed as OpenSky in RRDB, this site just uses LCN's 1~5)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LCRA EDACS Site # 028 (1C) San Marcos (S_MARCOS) Hays 01 935.4625 02 935.9250 03 937.9750
04 939.1500 05 939.5000 06 935.3875 07 935.9750c 08 937.4750
09 938.4625 10 Not Used 11 935.9500
2)-(Delete LCN#10 938.9500 and LCN#12 938.3875 both listed as OpenSky and had digital traffic)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LCRA EDACS Site # 029 (1D) Kingsbury (KNG_BURY) Guadalupe 01 935.4125c 02 936.0000 03 939.0000
04 939.4500 05 939.9625 06 937.4375 07 935.4875
3)-(Delete LCN#8 936.7500 which is listed as OpenSky in RRDB, this site just uses LCN's 1~7)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LCRA EDACS Site # 014 (E) Creedmoor (CREDMOOR) Travis (not close enough this trip, just a weak CC)
4)-(Delete LCN#13 938.97500 which is listed as OpenSky in RRDB, I will analyze next road trip)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ps ~ I have a feeling more of these LCRA EDACS sites will need further analyzing and editing !

btw ~ I was looking for a previous related thread on my topic instead of starting yet another new thread

Thanks,
Michael-SATX

 

[rbarker]

Has there been any activity with Open Sky? I believe that Lago Vista PD may have switched to this in Travis County. They are simulcasting over their LCRA analog talkgroup 12-041 but I can tell it's simulcast because the unit id is always the same and the simulcast is broken. What I hear sounds "digital" and they are having a lot of trouble understanding each other at times.

 

[NC5267]

Last I heard LCRA wanted all Public Safety users to move to the P25 network...I haven't heard of any public safety agency moving to the open sky system...try one of the LCRA P25 towers near you..Some agencies south of Hays county are using the system full-time..would not surprise me if that is whay they are patching too since that is how the transition started down here

 

[Cowthief]

Confirmed.

The new talkies can do 700 MHz/800 MHz.
P25 radios/OpenSky Can do analog!
There are 5 "Mutual Aid" channels that are analog.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/LawEnforcementSupport/communications/interop/documents/tsicpMOU.pdf
This is all public record.
As far as San Antonio "Sneaking" anything in? city council made the communications plan available by open records request.
There are 2 PSAP locations, one downtown and the other in Leon Valley.
San Antonio just built a fancy new public safety center, VHF, UHF, 700 MHz, 800 MHz, it is all now unified.
In a small number of mobiles, they can link VHF and 700/800 MHz, from the unit.
And, there are multi band talkies.
But, for the most part, San Antonio does not work with the outside communities, they work with San Antonio.