Chronic
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Care to share the details of the amazon deal ?
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LMCC letter to FCC about CCR problem.
- Thread starter nd5y
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Care to share the details of the amazon deal ?
My Icoms and Yaesus were made in Japan. My Kenwoods were made in Malaysia.
This isn't about the ability of the Chinese to manufacture high quality electronics products. Apple iPhones are made in China. The difference is that they are made to Apple designs, using Apple-specified parts, and production is overseen by Apple employees. OTOH, when the Chinese merely copy another company's intellectual property or take advantage of super-cheap radios-on-a-chip without bothering to provide the necessary, and expensive, filtering, then we get crap radios.
No. I'm not going to promote a Chinese company's fraudulent business practices.
Around here, the CCR of choice for school districts is the Retevis "RT7" or some crap along that line--a BF777s clone.
We've been slowly replacing them as the administration comes to see that they truly are getting what they paid for.
Other schools have been using VHF BPR40s, which aren't much better. They don't even want to spend the money on a BPR40. They complain they have no budget for these items. We all know they have money, but communications isn't a priority to them. Despite the now recurring theme of emergency situations requiring reliable communications, most won't even consider a repeater as it's "never going to happen, that's too expensive".
You can bury your head in the sand and pretend that Chinese companies build a good radio and don't use deceptive, borderline illegal marketing, or you can wake up and see the world for what it is.
We've been slowly replacing them as the administration comes to see that they truly are getting what they paid for.
Other schools have been using VHF BPR40s, which aren't much better. They don't even want to spend the money on a BPR40. They complain they have no budget for these items. We all know they have money, but communications isn't a priority to them. Despite the now recurring theme of emergency situations requiring reliable communications, most won't even consider a repeater as it's "never going to happen, that's too expensive".
You can bury your head in the sand and pretend that Chinese companies build a good radio and don't use deceptive, borderline illegal marketing, or you can wake up and see the world for what it is.
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RFI-EMI-GUY
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I worked for one of the Big 3 for over 17 years, in a number of roles, product final test , product engineering , field engineering , quality control and sales.
The effort that goes into designing a radio transceiver is significant the RF subsystem needs to meet industry standards EIA/TIA603 as well as advertised and internal company specifications, the software must be tested thoroughly. The radio is tested over temperature extremes, there are mechanical shock and vibration tests, pre FCC certification tests, FCC certifications, pilot run, QC evaluations, production engineering and line maintenance, etc.
You are not getting this level of effort for a $35 radio that is simply an FRS toy with increased channels and power.
Take apart a mid tier commercial radio and count the parts. Take apart a CCR and count the parts. What is missing? Everything required for a quality design.
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No, it's not.
There's really no comparison between the CCR's and the good stuff. No respectable public safety agency is going to put peoples lives on the line with a $10 radio. Individual officers might try, but it doesn't last long. No radio shop is going to install a repeater and then put junk radios on it.
The issue is the consumers are buying these radios and not understanding the laws, licensing, etc. Or, individuals buy them and try to put them on commercial systems.
Yeah, a lot of the big companies might be able to drop the prices on the radios, but it's going to impact their ability to support the products. A lot of the time what you are paying for isn't the specific product, but the development and support that goes behind them.
Just try and get technical support on a CCR that you paid $10 for. They'll tell you to send the radio back to them (in China) at your cost (Costs more than $10 to ship it). If it actually gets there and they follow through, they just send you a new $10 radio.
Knowing that I can call Kenwood, Motorola, Harris, Vertex, etc. and talk to a human, get firmware updates, etc. is worth the extra cost.
The Chinese can make good stuff if they are paid to. There's a fair amount of decent equipment coming out of China. It all depends if the company contracting the production out of China is willing to pay for it or not.
The issue is that the Chinese have figured out they can circumvent the middle man and sell direct to the American consumer, or through small time dealers and make more money.
Oh yeah, I've seen the occassional CB enforcement, but those are for American distributers. The problem with CCRs is that not only are they made in China, but they are generally distributed from China. There is no enforcement to be done. Sure, there are some middlemen and dealers in the US, but you simply cut them right out of the loop. The end user is always going to be able to go on Amazon or eBay or Alibaba and have the radios shipped to the US. The government can ban their import entirely (which isn't going to happen) but then Customs will simply miss it like they do every other "illegal" item that is imported into this country. It's not their priority to catch illegal radios.
Sadly, I have to agree with Chronic on this one, that this is the Big 3 getting angry about losing sales. This is not about interference or radios not meeting the FCC specs. or what have you.
Sure, no public safety/service agency is ever going to be using CCRs, and while that segment is a large chunk of the people who purchase radios, my guess is that it hardly compares to the number of radios that are purchased for business use. You can have factories with a couple thousand radios, you have school districts, local governments, water companies, electric companies, consumers buying $50 a piece bubble pack radios, etc. Where I used to live, the school district, for example, had far more radios than the Sheriff/Fire Department/EMTs combined. Wasn't even close.
Make no mistake, the CCRs are absolutely 100% cutting into their sales, whether anybody cares to admit it or not. I see it just casually going around my town here. Small businesses have the Baofengs, some smaller local utility companies have the Baofengs, a local private school has a combination of Baofeng and Retevis. Outside of one guy using a Midland mobile radio, I haven't come across a single GMRS user out here who isn't using a CCR, and it's largely the same on MURS.
Las Vegas? Los Angeles? You don't even want to know, because it's just going to make you mad.
They're everywhere!All those radios? That's a sale that Motorola isn't going to get. That's a sale that was in the bank in the past. School district needs 500 radios? That sale goes to Motorola. Business needs a dozen new radios? Motorola. Well....not anymore. The Big 3 are losing money every single day these CCRs are being sold in the US.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
It is not only about sales. It is about cheap, garbage pail, interference generating garbage. They should not be used in LMR service, and they are being bought by people that have ZERO understanding of radio to begin with. Then they are not being licensed, and they do cause interference. Both by being improperly programmed, and because they have ZERO filtering. If you don’t believe me, put one on a spectrum analyzer.
Make no mistake, the CCRs are absolutely 100% cutting into their sales... Las Vegas? Los Angeles? You don't even want to know, because it's just going to make you mad.
All those radios? That's a sale that Motorola isn't going to get. That's a sale that was in the bank in the past. School district needs 500 radios? That sale goes to Motorola. Business needs a dozen new radios? Motorola. Well....not anymore. The Big 3 are losing money every single day these CCRs are being sold in the US.
Yes they are cutting into sales.
I am not sure who the ‘big 3’ you keep referring to, but I have seen and heard of public safety using CCR’s, especially fire, because fire is usually volunteer and if they don’t raise the money, their government won’t buy it.
The technical aspects of what make CCR’s such garbage, and the fact that there is zero control over what is being programmed is much more concerning to me than Motorola losing sales.
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At least some (maybe all XL series?) Harris radios are made in Rochester, NY.
Never said they didn't. I am well aware of all of those things. But I personally don't believe that's the motivation behind the letter. I highly doubt there is a massive amount of interference being caused by these radios. I'm in Los Angeles regularly; I'm in Las Vegas regularly. You would think in one of the most populous cities in the country that you would hear this massive interference from ZERO filtering. You don't. Tune around the bands day or night. You don't hear any of it. Like I said, there are tons of people around my area using these radios for FRS/GMRS. They're not causing any interference at all. The spectrum analyzer is different from the real world, where you also have filtered receivers, etc.
I'm sure there are isolated incidents in which there is interference being caused on a specific frequency to a specific business or such, but that has always been the case. As long as I can remember, there have been unlicensed people in the business band. Motorola and others used to sell the pre-programmed radios with a bunch of business band frequencies, and a license application in the box. Want to guess how many people spent the money and sent in that application? People (businesses included) have always purchased used radios and pirated software and programmed radios for their businesses. It has ALWAYS been an issue. Yet nobody has cared for decades because Motorola and Midland and whomever else were making those radios, and still making money from those radios.
The motivation is the all mighty dollar. I promise you, Motorola and friends are losing tons of money. You take a large organization that might need 1000 radios and Motorola just lost at a very minimum $1 million, plus service contracts, extended warranties, etc. If you don't think they feel these million dollar loses over and over and over again, you're very mistaken.
"Sinda" a measurement of how high you have to hold it up in the air to get a signal.
That's why people are buying them. Why fork over $ for some POS "35 mile" FRS junk. Get it all!
BearCom
Newbie
I'm sure you're intentions are not to harm business, but it would be greatly appreciated if the facts were presented accurately. BearCom is not a manufacturer of equipment, they are a distributor only. Motorola, Vertex (owned by Motorola), and ICOM each make a radio that is private labeled for BearCom. So, those "BearCom" radios you are referring to are manufactured by either Motorola or ICOM.
RFI-EMI-GUY
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I think you have misquoted me by accident. Never have I mentioned BearCom in this thread. I think you have confused me with someone else?
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RFI-EMI-GUY,
My guess is that this is the message to which they are referring. "Bearcom or any other radio that has a name that looks like it comes directly from mainland China."
Edited: This is probably where they got the wrong quote: http://forums.radioreference.com/2886206-post12.html. You had quoted the other person's message.
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RFI-EMI-GUY
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Again, why am I being dragged into this by anyone? These were not my words. And just who is this BearCom, an apparent newbie with just two posts, suggesting I am hurting his business?
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
No doubt a corporate troll. BearCom has done enough to hurt their own business without relying on RadioReference to do it.
Folks, let's drop the Bearcom thing and get back to the original topic which is the LMCC letter to the FCC.
BearCom
Newbie
My apologies for the error...
n1das
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