• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

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avdrummerboy

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Case in point, the Boston Marathon bombers. Do you think it would have been a more effective, faster search for them if, if they could have turned on a cheap radio, or a portable TV, and listened in to the entire pursuit including what units were going where?
I'm a little confused by this question, are you asking if the bombers would have been caught faster had they been able to listen in on comms.? Truthfully, it wouldn't matter, they had many many people looking for them, the public included.

I can also pose a reverse question to you; can you cite any clear example(s) of a case or cases where a subject was seen and confirmed to have been using a scanner radio to actively evade police? Any court case where it was definitively proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the fact that the criminal had a scanner or any sort of radio is the main causative factor in a law enforcement death or other serious infraction? Someone running from the police on foot? That's quite a talent to hold a scanner to your ear and actively listen, interpret, analyze, decide and evade the police all while focusing all your mental and physical energy on moving as fast as you can away from them. Someone who is being chased knows that the police are coming for them, they don't need any form of radio or TV or facebook or anything to figure that out. Scanner or no, nothing really changes. As much as that line of reasoning is drilled into the heads of all LEO's (and the public) in the US, I have yet to see any true documented case of that happening. Just having a scanner in the house or in the car does not mean that someone- criminal or otherwise- used it.

Look at the Chris Dorner incident or the San Bernardino shooting from my neck of the woods. Both of these incidents happened while our county was in the clear for law enforcement. As was repeatedly said on this site and who knows how many others, the scanner audio was going out in real time on live TV. Would anything have changed had encryption been in place? If you truly think about it, you can only honestly answer a loud resounding NO. Dorner knew he was being chased and as a former cop knew basically how it would all go down.

The San Bernardino shooters knew they were being chased and knew that it was only a matter of time before they would be martyred for their cause. About the only complaint that was posed about it all was the "burn it down" comment that went out over the air, but, let's be honest, CYA for bad tactical maneuvers or dicey comments is really not a legitimate reason for encryption. If anything, it spotlights the reasoning behind why encryption is so dangerous and should be used very sparingly and with much oversight!

And to top it all off, guess what neither Dorner nor the San Bernardino shooters (nor the Boston marathon bombers for that matter) had on them? Scanners! Guess what else? Their phones weren't blasting 5-0 Radio or broadcastify either. This idea that scanners are bad and clear audio traffic is a horrific nightmare for first responders is a pile of bunk. Encryption wouldn't have changed a thing about these incidents and how they went down.

NYC has some 40,000 cops and 20,000 firemen plus other responders. Do you think any radio network can clue in 60,000 users all at the same time, except plain broadcast? Now make it a national incident, the next New Madrid earthquake, anything on a similar scale that is historically, geologically, predictable to happen. Can you clue in 100,000 responders with anything except open broadcast? Not really.

So yes, I think citizens often can and should be looped in. But I don't see a practical compromise.
You know what would make it real easy to que all these people in (responders and citizens alike) to potentially life threatening situations in one broadcast? Scanners and clear audio of it. The practical compromise is VERY limited encryption use and allowing the taxpayer indirect use of the expensive radio system that they helped fund to build.

On intercommunications...sometimes that's what having dispatchers and operators with special patch boxes is for. Anything more extensive than that, could be an economical and technical nightmare. Putting all the "emcomm/auxcomm" radios in one band, i.e. 700MHz, is a nice thought. But UHF is lousy for cities, and no one band is going to allow enough systems to stay out of each other's hair, as best I can tell.
Not to draw offense, but have you ever worked in the field as a first responder? Because I can tell you that the game of dispatcher telephone that you have described above that has to be played to get a simple message from me to, say, a peace officer, is ridiculous. And a majority of the time, whatever is said gets to the other end 180 degrees out of phase and wrong information can get somebody hurt or killed in my line of work. Where I work, no agencies can really talk to each other and the channels that are supposed to be "interoperability" channels are buried in odd zones of the radios that most people don't know or really care how to get to.

It's always quite embarrassing to have to drive up to a police or fire or other agency unit just to talk to them face to face because playing the telephone game takes minutes and we don't have each other channels in our radios at all. It's even worse doing it on foot with the $8000 dollar radio flapping on my hip that is useless in that critical moment.

I'm really am not trying to stir waves with my replies here, though most probably don't see it that way, I am merely trying to show people from a field perspective the real world problems that politicians and mother M sales reps and desk jockeys at DHS and others don't get to- or simply refuse to- see. As I've said many times, from personal experience, and the experiences of others, encryption is way overused and pointless 90+% of the time.
 

DaveNF2G

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The "one ring" solution would be to create a monopoly. That is unlikely to be permitted.

The re-stovepiping of public safety communications is just another symptom of the collapse of society into squabbling cliques. The people who are leading the squabbling and promoting divisions are the ones who decide where public safety money will be spent.
 

ten13

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ten13
can you cite any clear example(s) of a case or cases where a subject was seen and confirmed to have been using a scanner radio to actively evade police?
Actually, you can.

Anyone who watches TV news in a major metropolitan area (such as NYC) will see local police or District Attorneys showing the fruits of a major crime situation and arrest laid out on a table, that being guns (lots of guns), drugs, and, very often, radios...scanners as well as hand-held transceivers. And since NYC is, as far as radios go, a wide-open city, there's little doubt that they are using those radios as they see fit to advance their criminal activity.

On top of that, the cheap Chinese radios are having a major impact on the disruption of the NYPD radios from time to time, especially during major incidents, like New Year's Eve, demonstrations, etc. So much so that, on several occasions, they've had to have ALL the radios at the incident switched over to another channel (hoping that the one(s) with the interfering radios won't follow them over there).

All that, plus the 'usual' phony radio runs of police officers calling for help, etc.

I'm not a big fan of 'E' systems, but it may be, from the law enforcement point of view, something whose time has come.

Let's not kid ourselves.
 

ccfire

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Oct 26, 2006
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tellico plains, TN
all i can say is encrypt is good for swat or detectives nothing more!! and from what i have heard of trunking is its more complex for the users and can be overwhelmed with calls thats why i think fdny and nypd are smart for staying on a conventional system
 

ccfire

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tellico plains, TN
motorolas new multiband radios my hold an answer for interops and heres what i think for trunking what if instead of using 700mhz i think they should have opened up the uhf metro band 470-512mhz on a state by state level assining say tv channel 14 to one state and 15 to another for trunking and if needs be 2 channels of frequencies per state
 

ccfire

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tellico plains, TN
i know theres still some tv stations out there that may use one of those channels but surely not everyone of those is being used in each state
 

ccfire

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Oct 26, 2006
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tellico plains, TN
and if they are say like texas i am sure that one channel in austin signal ( just using that city as an example don't know what tv channels are being used there) can reach the entire state so the areas if dosen't reach use that channels frequencies in those areas fro repeaters
 
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