Marine band going digital

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

To add to that...you really see the digital advantage using a mixed-mode repeater. I've implemented numerous mixed-mode (analog and P25, some even P25 conventional simulcast) and hearing the difference when you stand in the exact same place using a portable on the fringe and switch modes is amazing.

You see that advantage because you are comparing NB analog with NB digital. If you compare WB analog with NB digital you will wonder what the excitement is all about. The NB mandate crippled FM LMR.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Yeah, it sure does.

The 1990's called, they want their analog back….

They want the WB analog FM back...

 

[ai8o]

The real problem here is NOT dPMR vs NXDN vs analog vs anything else.

The REAL problem is the currently existing already installed base, and the cost to replace it.

God knows how many marine radios are out there, from Zamboanga to Timbuktu to Sri Lanks and beyond.
Lots of people are going to fight this, just because they dont want to give up already installed equipment.

Many small countries do not have the money to rip out and upgrade their equipment.

<Flame shields UP!>

 

[mmckenna]

Maybe, but no flame suit needed.

But there's some other angles to look at here...

Radio replacement by attrition. There's been a lot of mention of "20 year old radios". That may be the case for recreational boaters, but on the commercial side, the radios get used a LOT more and don't usually last that long. Most large ships would burn though $200 bucks (cost of a VHF fixed radio) in fuel in a few mintues. Replacing a VHF radio isn't going to even be a speed bump.

The guys who run large ships understand the need for good communications and are smart enough to not put life safety on a 20 year old $150 VHF radio.

Other than recreational users in the USA, commercial users are still licensed, so the FCC can easily mandate this. Insurance companies can require it.

Marine VHF isn't that old. Not that long ago (probably well within most of our lives), HF was king, even for recreational boaters for near shore use. 2MHz was pretty popular… Yet, somehow, the world didn't stop turning when users moved away from HF and to VHF.

ITU/IMO is well aware of the proliferation of wide band analog VHF radios and will surely understand that there needs to be a transition period. They managed to pull off GMDSS just fine, and the world didn't stop turning. Inmarsat has worked well, and the world hasn't stopped turning. DCS, anyone? Retirement of the old 121.5 beacons for new 406 beacons?

Comparing any of this to the idiotic way that the FCC handled narrow banding probably isn't a good comparison….

And I really gotta wonder about a boater who relies on a 20 year old VHF marine radio. Anyone who has done anything with boats understands the sheer cost of the endeavor and isn't going to have a problem buying one new VHF radio every 20 years.

I'm sure Baofeng will step up for you guys and offer 10 digital Marine VHF radios for $200 bucks on E-bay/Amazon when the time comes.

 

[KB2GOM]

2182KHz is still active, but not many monitor it anymore.

Nevertheless, this looks like fun: Guest Post: An Introduction to DXing the MF Marine Bands

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Maybe, but no flame suit needed.

Snip

I'm sure Baofeng will step up for you guys and offer 10 digital Marine VHF radios for $200 bucks on E-bay/Amazon when the time comes.

That alone should be reason enough not to mess with marine radio frequencies and technology.

 

[INDY72]

So the WAHHH WAHHH is going to be as usual on this too. Its gong to happen. Get over it. The only real fight will be NXDN vs DPMR.. Most of the money bet on this should be NXDN as that is the main thing truly being pushed, though with the BIG money powers that run the cruise lines already running DMR on most of their ships as are the cargo ships, they would want something compatible with what they already use. Its just like crying over NXDN coming to rail. Its going to happen so just get prepped for it. Digital is the future, be glad they can't really switch it ALL to LTE. That would be worth crying like a little girl over.

 

[KC3ECJ]

So the WAHHH WAHHH is going to be as usual on this too. Its gong to happen. Get over it. The only real fight will be NXDN vs DPMR.. Most of the money bet on this should be NXDN as that is the main thing truly being pushed, though with the BIG money powers that run the cruise lines already running DMR on most of their ships as are the cargo ships, they would want something compatible with what they already use. Its just like crying over NXDN coming to rail. Its going to happen so just get prepped for it. Digital is the future, be glad they can't really switch it ALL to LTE. That would be worth crying like a little girl over.

Newer doesn't mean better.
You just want to be dazzled.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Newer doesn't mean better.
You just want to be dazzled.

Yup...
I am picturing an Apple fanboy spending the night outside the Apple store, in a tent, cash in hand to buy an iPhone 13XXX, or whatever the latest version of same phone, now "improved" with six "G's" and 9 camera lenses.

 

[nsrailfan6130]

No it's called welcome to the 21st century. As long as there are agencies in any service that are willing to put out the Benjamins for digital radios all the power to them. Both digital and analog have their place, sure, but, at the end of the day digital is the way to go in this day and time. Let's face it, Places are going digitally regardless of whether you, me, or Joe schmoe like it or not.

Newer doesn't mean better.
You just want to be dazzled.

 

[KC3ECJ]

No it's called welcome to the 21st century. As long as there are agencies in any service that are willing to put out the Benjamins for digital radios all the power to them. Both digital and analog have their place, sure, but, at the end of the day digital is the way to go in this day and time. Let's face it, Places are going digitally regardless of whether you, me, or Joe schmoe like it or not.

What makes you think it's the way to go?
You're transforming voice into computer code! Big deal!
This isn't Compact Disc Digital Audio's PCM we are talking about here.

You want people to use something that can't carry or reproduce audio as realistically as even narrow FM modes.
Making people sound a little better than Microsoft Sam doesn't cut it.
You got something along the lines of the uncanny valley effect going here.

And tell me this, when the digital audio produces a Max Headroom like stutter, is this a desirable effect?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

No it's called welcome to the 21st century. As long as there are agencies in any service that are willing to put out the Benjamins for digital radios all the power to them. Both digital and analog have their place, sure, but, at the end of the day digital is the way to go in this day and time. Let's face it, Places are going digitally regardless of whether you, me, or Joe schmoe like it or not.

These agencies are spending OPM, other people's money, as in taxpayers money. The corporations benefiting from this are selling technology that has a very limited shelf life. The equipment will be obsolete within a few short years until another "better" version is released. Wideband FM is perfectly acceptable for the VHF marine service. It is fully compatible and has proven reliability. Ever wonder why aviation sticks with AM radios?

 

[DeoVindice]

What makes you think it's the way to go?
You're transforming voice into computer code! Big deal!
This isn't Compact Disc Digital Audio's PCM we are talking about here.

You want people to use something that can't carry or reproduce audio as realistically as even narrow FM modes.
Making people sound a little better than Microsoft Sam doesn't cut it.
You got something along the lines of the uncanny valley effect going here.

And tell me this, when the digital audio produces a Max Headroom like stutter, is this a desirable effect?

What on earth kind of digital system are you operating on? Is it amateur stuff using Chinese toy DMR radios, or something set up by a professional using the manufacturer's audio optimization guidelines?

 

[nsrailfan6130]

I am not out here to advocate on behalf of digital ok, I am just saying that certain bands have their place and I think as long as agencies go with what's best for them then cool. I just think there are some on here who insist on living in the past and make digital out to be some kind of evil. Whatever happens let it be. If Marine decides to go digital then let it be. Enough said. I am not going to debate this any further because we have our own points of view.

These agencies are spending OPM, other people's money, as in taxpayers money. The corporations benefiting from this are selling technology that has a very limited shelf life. The equipment will be obsolete within a few short years until another "better" version is released. Wideband FM is perfectly acceptable for the VHF marine service. It is fully compatible and has proven reliability. Ever wonder why aviation sticks with AM radios?

 

[n6hgg]

What a joke.

 

[KC3ECJ]

What on earth kind of digital system are you operating on? Is it amateur stuff using Chinese toy DMR radios, or something set up by a professional using the manufacturer's audio optimization guidelines?

The Motorola DMR radios I had at a couple places I worked sounded terrible.
However I try a random brand, Retevis, their RT73, and even that sounds more clear on DMR than a Motorola. I also received a Yaesu C4FM radio over a system linked to an amateur DMR repeater to the RT73 that sounded more clear than the Mororolas I had to use at work.

Retevis used to be something I would screen out of my search results years ago because back then they were just selling Baofeng clones.
Now they have some better stuff.

Another place I had a DMR capable Motorola that we just used on analog, it sounded fine, and had better range than the other Motorola analog it replaced.

What are these "professionals" doing? OpenSky sounded awful. P-25 is hit or miss but have had less opportunities to monitor that outside of streaming.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I am not out here to advocate on behalf of digital ok, I am just saying that certain bands have their place and I think as long as agencies go with what's best for them then cool. I just think there are some on here who insist on living in the past and make digital out to be some kind of evil. Whatever happens let it be. If Marine decides to go digital then let it be. Enough said. I am not going to debate this any further because we have our own points of view.

Alrighty then, your refusal is duly noted, bye bye.

 

[INDY72]

Wahhh wahhh wahhh. OMG AM went to VHF lo!!!!!!!!! Wahh wahhh wahhh. VHF Lo went to VHF Hi!!!! Wahhh wahhhh wahhh. VHF hi went to UHF!!!!! Wahhh wahhh wahhh. UHF is moving to 800!!!! Wahh wahh wahhh.... And so on and so forth. It really never ends. Wahh wahh wahh. I am not in charge and they want to do things without my say so. Good God.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The Motorola DMR radios I had at a couple places I worked sounded terrible.
However I try a random brand, Retevis, their RT73, and even that sounds more clear on DMR than a Motorola. I also received a Yaesu C4FM radio over a system linked to an amateur DMR repeater to the RT73 that sounded more clear than the Mororolas I had to use at work.

Retevis used to be something I would screen out of my search results years ago because back then they were just selling Baofeng clones.
Now they have some better stuff.

Another place I had a DMR capable Motorola that we just used on analog, it sounded fine, and had better range than the other Motorola analog it replaced.

What are these "professionals" doing? OpenSky sounded awful. P-25 is hit or miss but have had less opportunities to monitor that outside of streaming.

I recall before P25 the popular digital encryption was Securenet which is basically 12 KBps CVSD. It sounded fuzzy and everyone generally agreed that FM sounded better. Then P25 comes along and all that Securenet went away and the consensus was that P25 was clearer. Well, 2 years back, I resurrected some Securenet and compared side by side with P25. Guess what? The Securenet was more natural sounding and had virtually no latency compared with P25. We can argue all day about the advantages P25, NXDN and DMR as a digital backbone create. But truth is, they really don't provide any great benefit to the marine radio environment where 99% of communications are simplex, boat to boat, base to boat, to the horizon.

 

[KC3ECJ]

Wahhh wahhh wahhh. OMG AM went to VHF lo!!!!!!!!! Wahh wahhh wahhh. VHF Lo went to VHF Hi!!!! Wahhh wahhhh wahhh. VHF hi went to UHF!!!!! Wahhh wahhh wahhh. UHF is moving to 800!!!! Wahh wahh wahhh.... And so on and so forth. It really never ends. Wahh wahh wahh. I am not in charge and they want to do things without my say so. Good God.

Who is in charge indeed...
Maybe there is one group of despot countries out there that don't want this, maybe there is another that does.