MARS/CAP mods

[prcguy]

Currently, the US Coast Guard Auxiliary allows the use of modified amateur radios for use on NTIA frequencies for performing duties related to the USCG or the USCG AUX. Every week you will find lots of Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, Elecraft and similar radios on their Govt frequencies. This is much different than MARS or CAP or any other Govt organization I've seen. The USCG AUX does require a Part 90 certified radio for use on any of their VHF frequencies or systems.

Unless the radio is FCC certified for operation on "commercial frequencies", it would be illegal to transmit on those frequencies whether the user is "authorized" or not.

A rather well-known online amateur radio dealer charges $35-50 to perform "MARS mods" on brand new radios before they ship them. I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal. But, they are extracting additional funds for a useless service. Useless in that the radio can't be legally used to transmit out of the amateur radio bands and isn't accepted for use on MARS or CAP.

 

[cavmedic]

And it's a good question, and it deserves an answer.

First, allow me to point out that the burden isn't on everyone else to prove that someone ignoring the rules is causing issues. The FCC rules were established for some good reasons, and understanding what those reasons are would be good reading for any one using any radio service, including amateur radio, CB, GMRS, FRS, etc. The FCC has rules in each of those sections (as well as others that apply (Part 2, Part 15) that require radios to not cause harmful interference.

So, to answer your initial question...
Modifying a radio to work outside it's designed specifications runs the risk of spurious emissions generated by the transmitter from getting past filtering that is designed to suppress them. Those unwanted emissions can cause interference to other licensed users, and not just hams.
Adjusting the transmitter incorrectly can cause issues, too. Case in point:
There is a popular line of Motorola radios that hams like to use. They are pretty well known to be good radios, however if you turn the RF power down too low, they suddenly start acting erratic and generating signals outside where they are supposed to. Most would think that turning the RF power down would be a good thing. In this case, without the right equipment, a radio can easily cause interference to other users, including public safety users.
I've heard more than one, "No one is complaining, so it's OK!". Problem is, it's not. Just because someone isn't complaining about a crappy signal coming out of your radio may just mean they haven't tracked you down yet.

I had to spend quite a bit of time earlier this year chasing down a transmitter that was interfering with one of our repeater inputs. It took a lot of time, effort and -taxpayer dollars-. The guys running the radio just assumed everything was OK, until I had to go talk to them. They'd be running along for months assuming all was OK. Meantime, they were wiping out one of our repeater inputs and I was driving all over trying to DF them.

So, that instance, it -DID- affect me. '

And this isn't an isolated case. I'm sure there are others on here that have gone through the same thing. The FCC has lots of documented cases of this, including stupid things like non-type accepted LED signs that were killing public safety radio coverage. You can look those up on the FCC enforcement bureau page.

So, this is why the FCC rules exist. Problem is there are those that think the rules are just a joke and don't apply to them. Yeah, often people get away with it and don't have any issues, but it doesn't mean it's NOT causing issues for someone.

But I didn’t ask YOU, I asked the OP who was complaining about it. Notice how he side stepped that question??? That tells me all I need to know.

Now had he made the complaint , then followed up with an example, sure I get it . But that was not the case.

 

[mmckenna]

But I didn’t ask YOU, I asked the OP who was complaining about it. Notice how he side stepped that question??? That tells me all I need to know.

Would probably be good to address the OP directly by using the "Reply" button.

But the answer stands. While it may not directly impact the OP, it does impact others.

 

[K9DWB]

And this affects you how? Seriously question.

If I may be so bold or arrogant, I would like to add my 2 cents as an FCC licensed General class ham operator with all equipment unaltered, AND as a former CB user that had almost everything illegally altered including owning/operating Export 10/11 Meter transceivers, 1 CB designed to be a legal FCC approved CB that was altered to enable running a 10 Meter Linear amp, of a mobile type I used mostly in 18 wheeler pro tractor trailer driver status.

So I have been on both sides of no alteration and alteration and on the CB and the Amateur radio fields.
And now to answer your question bluntly and respectfully.

IF for example you operate an illegally altered radio of any type and it affects my operation of my Amateur radio I would contact the FCC to investigate. And THAT then affects you. MIC DROP baby!

PS I don't care one lick if you asked me or not. My answer still applies. fini

PPS I am fully aware Amateur and CB are different and mods respective to each is different to a degree. So respectfully save the explanation that's at the tip of your tongue and delete the post regarding such.

 

[cavmedic]

Would probably be good to address the OP directly by using the "Reply" button.

But the answer stands. While it may not directly impact the OP, it does impact others.

I did originally, and that specific Q was skipped on reply. It’s all good , and your specific example was textbook reason in your case. But the original post , not so much.

 

[cavmedic]

If I may be so bold or arrogant, I would like to add my 2 cents as an FCC licensed General class ham operator with all equipment unaltered, AND as a former CB user that had almost everything illegally altered including owning/operating Export 10/11 Meter transceivers, 1 CB designed to be a legal FCC approved CB that was altered to enable running a 10 Meter Linear amp, of a mobile type I used mostly in 18 wheeler pro tractor trailer driver status.

So I have been on both sides of no alteration and alteration and on the CB and the Amateur radio fields.
And now to answer your question bluntly and respectfully.

IF for example you operate an illegally altered radio of any type and it affects my operation of my Amateur radio I would contact the FCC to investigate. And THAT then affects you. MIC DROP baby!

The FCC doesn’t care. The most they will do is forward your complaint to the AARL.

 

[Hit_Factor]

The FCC doesn’t care. The most they will do is forward your complaint to the AARL.

Why would they do that? I doubt the FCC would assume it's an amateur radio operator causing the interference.

 

[cavmedic]

Why would they do that? I doubt the FCC would assume it's an amateur radio operator causing the interference.

The ARRL is where all the complaints relating to Ham Radio interference go to die.

 

[buddrousa]

FCC not ARRL

Rugged Radios finally gets an FCC Smack-Down

About time, too. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-1395A1.pdf Multiple offenses under Part 80, 90 and 95 on several models. Type certifications, front panel programming, pre-programmed with frequencies in violation of type certification. Rugged radios has been blatantly thumbing...

forums.radioreference.com

 

[cavmedic]

FCC not ARRL

Rugged Radios finally gets an FCC Smack-Down

About time, too. https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-20-1395A1.pdf Multiple offenses under Part 80, 90 and 95 on several models. Type certifications, front panel programming, pre-programmed with frequencies in violation of type certification. Rugged radios has been blatantly thumbing...

forums.radioreference.com

File an amateur complaint to the FCC and see who contacts you besides no one.

To be more specific, file a complaint about interference to your commercially licensed frequencies AND amateur frequencies due to a neighbors VFD pond pump. Your commercial complaint goes to a local frequency coordinator , who never responds , and neither does the FCC, and never hear anything about the amateur complaint. You then call the ARRL for assistance , who tells you that the FCC sends ALL amateur related interference complaint to them anyway.

 

[AK9R]

If you go back to post #1 in this thread, you'll see that I said:

Since we seem to have several posts about doing "MARS/CAP" mods to various pieces of amateur radio equipment, let's address the general usefulness of these mods by discussing what radios are acceptable to MARS and CAP. Maybe this will help people make educated decisions about these mods.

I underlined the second sentence in my quote as it is, I believe, the crux of the matter.

We as amateur radio operators, especially experienced hams and those who have some technical knowledge, have an obligation to pass on our knowledge and experience to newer licensees. I don't like seeing people waste money on useless MARS/CAP mods to their radios any more than I like seeing people waste money on useless "paint guard" and "fabric shield" packages at the car dealership. It's an educational thing.

Does it impact me? Am I helping the amateur radio community with a little information? Does education improve society? You decide.

 

[cavmedic]

If you go back to post #1 in this thread, you'll see that I said:

I underlined the second sentence in my quote as it is, I believe, the crux of the matter.

We as amateur radio operators, especially experienced hams and those who have some technical knowledge, have an obligation to pass on our knowledge and experience to newer licensees. I don't like seeing people waste money on useless MARS/CAP mods to their radios any more than I like seeing people waste money on useless "paint guard" and "fabric shield" packages at the car dealership. It's an educational thing.

Does it impact me? Am I helping the amateur radio community with a little information? Does education improve society? You decide.

Ehhh, until the push for “emcomm” ceases and that mentality sizzles out, along with memorization of test questions without ever understanding the basics , it’s never gonna go away. Now with online testing, it’s only going to get worse.

 

[cavmedic]

And I may have misunderstood your original post as just some old grouch griping about people doing it.

 

[bill4long]

And then there's the "modification" of the radio that would void the Part 15 rules that mass produced amateur radios are certified under.

Part 15 certification pertains to incidental emissions. Unlocking a radio for MURS/CAPS doesn't make a given radio suddenly start having spurious emissions it otherwise didn't have. Moreover, Part 15 is only relevant and time of import or sale, and becomes irrelevant when a ham actually takes possession of such radios. Hell, hams can build their radios. When using any radio on ham frequencies, all that matters is that the person is licensed for that frequency, and whether or not the spurious emissions levels of the transmitter are in conformance to the levels specified in Part 97.

The mere unlocking of ham radio for MARS/CAPS is legal. Nobody violates any rules by merely unlocking the radio. Transmitting on the MARS/CAPS frequencies using such modified devices is legal for those licensed on those services.

 

[sallen07]

Now with online testing, it’s only going to get worse.

Huh? The "online testing" only differs from in-person testing in the way it is delivered. Yes, it's easy to argue that the current testing system leaves much to be desired, but the fact that someone can take it sitting at their computer rather than in a classroom somewhere matters not at all.

Or are you suggesting that the fact that folks were able to take exams during this time when in-person testing wasn't available somehow has allowed more of the "wrong" people to get licensed?

 

[AK9R]

Folks, this thread is not about licensing issues or procedures. Let's try to stay on topic.

 

[mmckenna]

Part 15 certification pertains to incidental emissions. Unlocking a radio for MURS/CAPS doesn't make a given radio suddenly start having spurious emissions it otherwise didn't have. Moreover, Part 15 is only relevant and time of import or sale, and becomes irrelevant when a ham actually takes possession of such radios. Hell, hams can build their radios. When using any radio on ham frequencies, all that matters is that the person is licensed for that frequency, and whether or not the spurious emissions levels of the transmitter are in conformance to the levels specified in Part 97.

Pretty much can agree on that.
My point was, that the receiver portion often has a Part 15 certification. The rules, as they are, have some wording about the consumer not changing the device: "...adjustments of any control that is readily accessible by or intended to be accessible to the user will not cause operation of the device in violation of the regulations."

But like I said, receiver portion...
But I'm not sure the FCC would consider the receiver a separate items from the transmitter when they are all in the same box with the single certification sticker. One might make a pretty good argument that messing with the radio would void the Part 15-ness of it. Or not, I could be wrong….

And I really don't care if someone does it or not. It's probably not going to impact me in the slightest. Just pointing out what the FCC says. Open to discussion.


I think what most people are pointing out is that most amateurs have no reason to get the MARS/CAP mod done, especially if they pay someone else to do it. The mistaken idea that an amateur is going to pop up on a public safety frequency and 'save the day' is rooted in some wackerish tendencies. And you know how much we -love- whackers.

 

[N4KVE]

Case in point:
There is a popular line of Motorola radios that hams like to use. They are pretty well known to be good radios, however if you turn the RF power down too low, they suddenly start acting erratic and generating signals outside where they are supposed to. Most would think that turning the RF power down would be a good thing. In this case, without the right equipment, a radio can easily cause interference to other users, including public safety users.

Had this a few years ago. I was using a 100 watt MCS2000 in my car because I used a repeater 60 miles away. But I wanted to set low power to 20 watts for local repeaters. Couldn’t do it. Low power had to be no lower than 60 watts because of this. Take the newer XPR4550’s. The 45 watt radio can not go lower than 25 watts in the low power setting for the same reason. But the 25 watt 4550 can go as low as one watt in the low power setting. It’s all about spurious emissions when using beyond the “spec” range.

 

[cmdrwill]

It’s all about spurious emissions when using beyond the “spec” range.

And that does not seem to be on any "ham" test.

 

[N4GIX]

Considering that all HF radios are capable of receiving without restriction "out of amateur bands" anyway, and the MARS/CAP mods only affect transmitting...

...then there is absolutely no point in such a mod. One could reasonably conclude that the only reasons for the mod is to allow one to transmit out of the ham bands, either for legitimate reasons or - most likely - illegitimate reasons.