MARS/CAP mods

Status
Not open for further replies.

prcguy

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
16,870
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, sorry, are you talking about modding a radio to go out of band or using the radio out of band? Two different things with the first being perfectly legal and the second not. Using your example its like having a car that's capable of exceeding the speed limit, which is not illegal. At least not yet. The other would be exceeding the speed limit which of course is breaking a law.

Fortunately the idiots in our Govt have not yet treated radios like they do firearms where they make things illegal based on what you "might" do with them as opposed to no real evidence of people actually doing things with them and still making them illegal.


LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE, IT IS ONLY ILLEGAL IF YOU GET CAUGHT. EXAMPLE: GOING 80MPH IN A 50MPH ZONE. ILLEGAL MEANS NOTHING UNLESS YOU GET CAUGHT. IN OTHER WORDS--RISK VS. REWARD. GET OVER IT FOLKS. THIS IS HOW THE REAL WORLD EXISTS. NOT SOME PIE IN THE SKY ALTRUISTIC VIEWPOINT.
 

AK9R

Lead Wiki Manager and almost an Awesome Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
10,157
Location
Central Indiana
ILLEGAL MEANS NOTHING UNLESS YOU GET CAUGHT.
Uh, no. If you break the law, whether it be exceeding the speed limit, transmitting on frequencies not authorized to you, or killing someone, it's still an illegal act. Just because you don't get caught doesn't make it any less illegal.
 

cistercian

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2016
Messages
107
Location
north carolina
There is an excellent reason for owning a general coverage transmit transmitter. Most modern rigs can be turned
down in output power. I have a couple that will go below 2 watts. A resistive network built from common components
can easily take this to the microwatt level. Who else wants a multimode modulation signal generator? I do.

Test equipment. Modern transceivers are great test equipment. Transmitting out of band has horrible consequences...
FAIL. But for lab use, it is a VERY useful tool.
 

DeoVindice

P25 Underground
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
548
Location
Gadsden Purchase
My policy is that I unlock my radios so they can transmit on any frequency they are capable of transmitting on.
Period.

Why? It having the ability to transmit on a given frequency does not mean that it can do so without creating harmonics with the potential to interfere with other licensed users. If we're talking VHF/UHF, buy good Part 90 gear and don't even bother taking the ham stuff out of band.
 

bill4long

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Messages
1,593
Location
Indianapolis
Why? It having the ability to transmit on a given frequency does not mean that it can do so without creating harmonics with the potential to nterfere with other licensed users. If we're talking VHF/UHF, buy good Part 90 gear and don't even bother taking the ham stuff out of band.

None of your business why. But I'll give you one reason out of sheer grace: because I own the radio.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
13,409
Location
VA
Why? It having the ability to transmit on a given frequency does not mean that it can do so without creating harmonics with the potential to interfere with other licensed users.
It doesn't mean anything, actually. Unlocking a radio locked to the ham bands in its default configuration doesn't mean you're going to have spurious emission issues, nor does buying a wide-open radio mean you won't.

Example: the AnyTone 578/878 come with a firmware mode lock disabling everything but the 2m and 70cm ham bands. You have to unlock them to use the 222 MHz ham band. The hardware is used worldwide throughout their frequency range without issues, but they are shipped to the U.S. locked down to the ham bands for regulatory reasons. And the Baofeng UV-5R and its many mutations are usually shipped wide open, but some of them have significant spurious emission issues.
 

AK9R

Lead Wiki Manager and almost an Awesome Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
10,157
Location
Central Indiana
Fair? :D At any rate, I provided a reason: because I own the radio.
I think you made your point. And, there's no need for the plural "you" to bicker about it.

The topic is MARS/CAP mods, whether or not the modified radios are legitimate for use in MARS or CAP, and whether or not they have any purpose for someone not involved with MARS or CAP.
 

wa8pyr

Retired and playing radio whenever I want.
Staff member
Lead Database Admin
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
7,306
Location
Ohio
Transmitting on the MARS/CAPS frequencies using such modified devices is legal for those licensed on those services.

Late to the party, but I can’t let this one pass…

It‘s only legal if the radio being used meets the technical requirements of the service in question. Whether it’s NTIA regulations, or Part 90, or Part 88, or whatever, using a device that does not meet the specs is not legal. Even then it’s technically illegal if it isn’t type-accepted for that service.
 

prcguy

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
16,870
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
Yes, but no, kinda sort of. Most CAP/MARS type services are very specific about the radios being used meeting Part 90, etc, regulations. The US Coast Guard Auxiliary as an example requires VHF radios on their Govt freqs to meet FCC Part 90 but for their HF operations they allow amateur radios on their NTIA licensed Govt freqs. They also allow Part 90 radios on VHF marine with up to 50 watts.

Late to the party, but I can’t let this one pass…

It‘s only legal if the radio being used meets the technical requirements of the service in question. Whether it’s NTIA regulations, or Part 90, or Part 88, or whatever, using a device that does not meet the specs is not legal. Even then it’s technically illegal if it isn’t type-accepted for that service.
 

k6cpo

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
1,399
Location
San Diego, CA
Part of the responsibility for the confusion and mess surrounding MARS Mods needs to be laid at the feet of the FCC. By making section 97.403 and 97.405 as vague and generalized as they did, it's has opened up a myriad of interpretations. A lot of hams believe it means they can modify their radios to operate outside the ham bands so they can summon help in an emergency. "If I get in trouble, I'll just call first responders on their frequency. I'll get the help I need and all will be forgiven because the FCC says it's OK."

Nothing could be further from the truth. With the increasing amount of interference and bogus calls taking place on public safety frequencies since the advent of cheap, easily obtainable wide open radios, many jurisdictions take a dim view of unauthorized users on their frequencies and are seeking prosecution when the responsible individuals are apprehended.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
25,771
Location
United States
Nothing could be further from the truth. With the increasing amount of interference and bogus calls taking place on public safety frequencies since the advent of cheap, easily obtainable wide open radios, many jurisdictions take a dim view of unauthorized users on their frequencies and are seeking prosecution when the responsible individuals are apprehended.

The county I live in had some big wildland fires a few years back. Fire agencies had a big problem with locals who owned CCRs and hams popping up on fire channels asking for status, providing un requested updates, and generally getting in the way. I'm sure most of them thought they were being helpful, but it created problems.
Because of that, the local county does its best to hide radio info now. Used to be if you asked the right person, they'd give you a copy of the radio plan. Yeah, we all know where to get it. But this has also pushed local law enforcement agencies to consider trunked system and encryption.

I've talked with many hams that assume they have some duty to pop up on public safety frequencies. No amount of logic will change their mind.
 

alcahuete

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
2,724
Location
Southern California
The county I live in had some big wildland fires a few years back. Fire agencies had a big problem with locals who owned CCRs and hams popping up on fire channels asking for status, providing un requested updates, and generally getting in the way. I'm sure most of them thought they were being helpful, but it created problems.
Because of that, the local county does its best to hide radio info now. Used to be if you asked the right person, they'd give you a copy of the radio plan. Yeah, we all know where to get it. But this has also pushed local law enforcement agencies to consider trunked system and encryption.

I've talked with many hams that assume they have some duty to pop up on public safety frequencies. No amount of logic will change their mind.

Wow......
 

kny2xb

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
336
Location
North Clearwater, FL
The county I live in had some big wildland fires a few years back. Fire agencies had a big problem with locals who owned CCRs and hams popping up on fire channels asking for status, providing un requested updates, and generally getting in the way. I'm sure most of them thought they were being helpful, but it created problems.
Because of that, the local county does its best to hide radio info now. Used to be if you asked the right person, they'd give you a copy of the radio plan. Yeah, we all know where to get it. But this has also pushed local law enforcement agencies to consider trunked systems and encryption.

Thanks schmucks, for mucking things up for everyone else
And for hindering the people trying to save your lives & property

I've talked with many hams that assume they have some duty to pop up on public safety frequencies. No amount of logic will change their mind.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should
 

902

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Messages
2,634
Location
Downsouthsomewhere
I've served in various roles in both organizations. Here's the deal: CAP chose to exercise its prerogative under the NTIA Redbook section 5.1.3, which says, "Agencies may promulgate more stringent criteria for their own use." Consider that as there is no longer a "CAP mod." CAP doesn't want you there with anything but compatible professional land mobile/maritime/Part 90/military grade radio equipment. In many cases, CAP provides the members it wants using radio equipment with "corporately-owned" radio equipment for their use within the organization's needs.

Frankly, any radio that meets the technical specifications defined in Chapter 5 may "work." The issue was that many modified FM transceivers either failed to meet the narrowband emission mask or did not have a VCO that allowed operation on every potential frequency needed, or had a (HF) VFO function which on numerous occasions led unfamiliar individuals to go outside of the frequencies they are authorized to operate on (they have no requirement to have any radio experience or licensure other than their internal training, so consider many but not all to be "appliance" operators). CAP has also evaluated receiver performance to the Redbook standards, so that if a transceiver's transmitter materially complies, but has an overly-broad receiver, it doesn't make it into the list of vetted equipment. The Heathkit HW-18 that was in the bottom of the closet in the squadron building doesn't meet the stability or functional specifications, even though it's a channelized device.

Also, without internally required performance standards, individuals tend to insist that infrastructure equipment is defective when it's their deficient individually-owned equipment that does not function within the required environment.

Administering the compliance of an enterprise-wide radio system is extremely difficult when thousands of individual members may become wildcards.

MARS operators are required to possess an amateur radio license and tend to be (but aren't always) more familiar with their equipment. In very broad terms, a transceiver with an oven oscillator or TCXO, or GPS disciplined oscillator, with speech processing turned off, and an envelope for voice transmissions to comply with 2K80J3E (2.8 kHz bandwidth SSB) complies. Various digital modes may use a slightly greater bandwidth. Still, the organization is responsible for compliance, and there is more peer-on-peer guidance. (5.1.2 Consequences of Non-conformance with the Provisions of this Chapter - In any instance of harmful interference caused by nonconformance with the provisions of this chapter, the responsibility for eliminating the harmful interference normally shall rest with the agency operating in nonconformance.) So, VFOs are a liability, while the capability for stable, channelized operation is better-suited for both organizations. My Collins S-Line was my primary MARS radio "back in the day." It's no longer desired today. I use an Icom IC-M710 as a primary HF transceiver (it's frequency agile, but channelized) or a Kenwood TS-2000 with authorized frequencies programmed into memory, not VFO operation so I won't bump the dial with a notepad and end up somewhere I don't belong.

To be clear, the FCC has no part in either organization. They both operate under the auspices of the NTIA, with one organization requiring a valid amateur radio operator license as a prerequisite to join and maintain membership. The FCC, however, will enforce unlicensed operation when someone is not authorized to operate as a CAP communicator or is not a MARS member.

If someone is not a MARS member, or a member of the SHARES network, they don't belong there and they have no reason to "mod" their equipment. Can someone do that anyway? Sure. But, there may be consequences for misuse or abuse.
 

902

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Messages
2,634
Location
Downsouthsomewhere
I've talked with many hams that assume they have some duty to pop up on public safety frequencies. No amount of logic will change their mind.
When I was a radio system manager, I had similar issues. I had a good dialogue with the Sheriff's Department, and ultimately fell under the SD's umbrella. What would happen is that help would be rendered, but then there would be additional questions, perhaps with a face-to-face meeting, and potential charges. At the very least, if you want your equipment back, make sure the judge likes your explanation.

Moral of the story: just use a cellphone if you can.

There may be consequences for misuse or abuse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top