Mdt's And Radios?

[PolarBear25]

I have one question for the LEOS. When my local pd dispatch runs a plate on the radio, isnt that what MDT's are for? If not, what are MDT'S main purpose's?

If there driving down the road and what to check 10-29 info. it just easier to call dispatch and ask and safer to also the other units hear it..

 

[datainmotion]

OK. This has completely gotten off track.

I sell and service Panasonic Toughbooks (the choice of a vast majority of Public Safety agencies in North America) and Itronix / General Dynamics GoBooks. In addition, we maintain numerous service contracts to maintain MDCs that we or other companies have sold to PS agencies.

Windows OS is used for a multitude of reasons. Yes another O/S could be loaded and be "transparent to the user" but not necessarily to the device drivers, 3rd party software, etc. typically used in Public Safety vehicles. Could that all change? Sure. Will it in the near future, most likely not.

As for "MDT problems" the vast majority in our 20 years experience are related to the mobile CAD client, Middleware such as NetMotion, wireless modems, the wireless network or simply PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard and chair).

IME the O/S creates > 1% of "MDT problems".

 

[KE7TJK]

Most of the MDC problems here revolve around either the server, or the network going down.

Local PD/FD share an 800 MHz system for their MDC's, and the Sheriffs department uses a cellular based system.

 

[w4rez]

OK. This has completely gotten off track.

I sell and service Panasonic Toughbooks (the choice of a vast majority of Public Safety agencies in North America) and Itronix / General Dynamics GoBooks. In addition, we maintain numerous service contracts to maintain MDCs that we or other companies have sold to PS agencies.

I fail to understand why we must insist upon making everything that contains a microprocessor a general purpose computer. Or using a general purpose computer for everything that requires a microprocessor, for that matter.

Windows OS is used for a multitude of reasons. Yes another O/S could be loaded and be "transparent to the user" but not necessarily to the device drivers, 3rd party software, etc. typically used in Public Safety vehicles

So you're depending on 3rd party device drivers to make your product work? That's your problem right there.

Could that all change? Sure. Will it in the near future, most likely not.

Just because this is the way that everybody is doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right way to do it.

As for "MDT problems" the vast majority in our 20 years experience are related to the mobile CAD client, Middleware such as NetMotion, wireless modems, the wireless network or simply PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard and chair).

It should be extremely rare for an application to crash the PC (since apparently the MDTs nowadays are little more than a generic PC with a radio modem). This is not the case with MS products.

IME the O/S creates > 1% of "MDT problems".

Sounds to me like the vendors are creating about 90% of the remaining problems by selling solutions that are held together by spit and baling twine, with the attitude "Well it's not a matter of life or death if the thing crashes, they've got voice radios for stuff like that."

My question is: Why can't vendors make a system that Just Effing Works? Wait...they'd have to spend a little money if they did that, wouldn't they?

 

[datainmotion]

Well it seems you have it all figured out. The rest of the world has been confused all along. I remember my days of idealism.

 

[datainmotion]

Look, before this gets out of hand again, you know as well as I do that computers are nothing more than consumables. I don't know if you work in the Public Safety sector or not, but in a PD car, the laptop is no different than the radio from the standpoint of "its another piece of equipment." And in its current form, its easy for users to interface with. You could load Linux onto either of those manufacturers machines and they would work fine. Unfortunately, no one will write apps for PDs and FDs to use on those machines until there is $$ to be made doing it.

I'm not quite sure about your reference to solutions that are poorly engineered. Is that hardware or software you are referring to? In this day and age, problems with the MDTs are considerably lower than they were when laptops first started appearing in cars.

 

[w4rez]

It has little do do with idealism and everything to do with trying to push vendors to make their products work better instead of selling garbage dressed up with pretty lights and sound effects.

 

[w4rez]

Look, before this gets out of hand again, you know as well as I do that computers are nothing more than consumables. I don't know if you work in the Public Safety sector or not, but in a PD car, the laptop is no different than the radio from the standpoint of "its another piece of equipment."

I would disagree. It's been my experience that public safety workers demand a very high level of reliability out of their radios, and for the most part they get it. This seems to be going the way of the dinosaur, too, though. Gone are the days of buying a Motorola radio and getting 10-20 years of use out of it.

 

[datainmotion]

That's why I asked the hardware/software question. There is a big difference between a Dell/HP/Gateway/ *insert clone name here* and a Toughbook.

I think Linux has its place and right now that's not in the Public Safety mobile arena. Again $$ talks. Believe me when I say I'm not in the cheering section for MS. But the reality is that the Windows platform isn't going away for mass users anytime soon.

So the software developers will continue to write code for Windows, PS agencies will continue to buy laptops for their cars with it pre-loaded and the sun will come up tomorrow.

 

[landonjensen]

All my Depts MDC's just went down.

 

[SAR923]

Our department has MDC's. Without getting into the OS/computer debate, they worked very well most of the time and allowed us to receive and send messages that would have been much more difficult to do by voice. The big problem I had was being in a one person car and trying to read MDC messages while responding Code 3 at 80 mph.

As to the OP's original question, they haven't yet developed an MDC we can strap to our bodies. A lot of plates and subjects get run when we are out of the vehicle and that leaves us with the good old HT to talk to dispatch.

 

[N_Jay]

That's why I asked the hardware/software question. There is a big difference between a Dell/HP/Gateway/ *insert clone name here* and a Toughbook.

I think Linux has its place and right now that's not in the Public Safety mobile arena. Again $$ talks. Believe me when I say I'm not in the cheering section for MS. But the reality is that the Windows platform isn't going away for mass users anytime soon.

So the software developers will continue to write code for Windows, PS agencies will continue to buy laptops for their cars with it pre-loaded and the sun will come up tomorrow.

You forgot to add, that the MS portion today is about as bulletproof (pun intended) as the embedded OS of just a few years back.

 

[Archie]

REPLY--MDT's

You also cannot use MDT's in unmarked and undercover vehicles because of their obvious oversized antennas, so blackberrys are used for DMV searches. Bike and foot patrol cops also use blackberrys. Same with Lojack, the four antennas are too obvious for use in undercover vehicles.

Some cops also like to double check with dispatch when they get an MDT listing showing a vehicle as stolen, suspended, etc.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[datainmotion]

You forgot to add, that the MS portion today is about as bulletproof (pun intended) as the embedded OS of just a few years back.

You're right. I cringe thinking about the days of Windows 95 in the cars.

In addition, Both Panasonic and Itronix have released their new laptops with Duo-core processors i.e. - "Vista Ready"

 

[w4rez]

You forgot to add, that the MS portion today is about as bulletproof (pun intended) as the embedded OS of just a few years back.

You can't be serious. I'll agree that 2k/XP is a lot more stable than 95/98/ME, but it's still wayy too buggy and (although this probably less important in the closed network environment of MDTs) insecure.

 

[N_Jay]

You can't be serious. I'll agree that 2k/XP is a lot more stable than 95/98/ME, but it's still wayy too buggy and (although this probably less important in the closed network environment of MDTs) insecure.

I would suggest you spend some amount of time talking to people who design and maintain these systems before you make assumptions.

I do agree that the typical Windows installation can be an issue, but with well selected hardware and drivers, stability is not a major concern.

Of course, in theory" an embedded OS is more stable, mostly because it is asked to do less, and has "well selected hardware and drivers"!

 

[w4rez]

I would suggest you spend some amount of time talking to people who design and maintain these systems before you make assumptions.

Dude..I'm a network admin, and have been for the past 7 years. Three of those years were working with one of the largest IP networks in the world. While not nearly as relevent as my experience in "production environments" I was a computer hobbyist for around 13 years prior to me getting paid to do it. My first computer was a Coleco ADAM if that gives you any indication of how long I've been messing with these things. Nowadays my "playground" is considerably more humble than that, but it still places me in charge of around roughly 1,500 PCs running XP and 2k, a dozen or so unix boxes, and several dozen routers, switches, and other random network devices. Every aspect of our network, which spans 3 states, has been designed or redesigned by me from the ground up with the exception of our MPLS network that we use to reach our VoIP provider. In addition to designing and maintaining these systems myself, I do talk to other people who do the same nearly every day. These aren't assumptions, these are facts.

As a specific example of why MS products continue to suck: On any MS operating system, the graphics driver runs in kernel space instead of user space. This is done so that the gaming crowd can have faster screen updates and frame rates but this is not necessary for any application that needs to run on a MDC, and presents both a security risk and a stability problem.

While I will agree with you that selection of hardware and drivers will do much to improve the stability of the system, it doesn't seem to be enough.

Of course, in theory" an embedded OS is more stable, mostly because it is asked to do less, and has "well selected hardware and drivers"!

Right, which is exactly why I say that an embedded OS is still the correct choice for MDCs. There's only so much that personnel need to do with their equipment. So, we can apply the KISS principle and start with a "bare OS" and add the needed functionality and provide well documented APIs for future functionality. I am not a developer, but I know many of them, and all of them complain about how poorly documented Microsoft's APIs are, especially when it comes to device drivers. It's difficult to write a stable driver when you're shooting in the dark. This is not an issue when developing for an open source OS, embedded or otherwise.

IME&O the *only* advantage MS has is the wide selection of applications that are available. It seems that the only way MS has been able to maintain this advantage in recent years is by harassing and penalizing developers if they dare develop for other operating systems. This will change in due time.

 

[N_Jay]

You seem to have misinterpreted what I meant.

I would take your wealth of network and computer knowledge and spend some amount of time talking to people who design and maintain these systems. (these systems meaning, specifically public safety mobile data systems).

OS crashes (even with the MS architecture shortcomings) are NOT a significant contribution to system problems and failures.

With the hardware, drivers and OS being very stable today, what is the advantage of moving to a proprietary (yes, an open Linux MDT system is more closed than a MS system) OS/Software platform, just to gain some additional stability?

I think your opinion maybe colored by your experience with older MS OS implementations.

Of course, I (and all the major vendors) may be wrong.

 

[w4rez]

I think your opinion maybe colored by your experience with older MS OS implementations.

Actually I have less experience with 95/98/ME than I do with 2k and XP. I spent most of those years working with unix and routers, thank God.

Of course, I (and all the major vendors) may be wrong.

Just because all the major vendors are doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do. Let's revisit VHS versus Beta: Beta was a far superior technology but VHS won, simply because it had vendor support. As I stated previously, Microsoft has been known to strongarm vendors into developing for their OS exclusively, or at the very least providing a better product under Windows than the versions available for other operating systems.

As I read more and more news blurbs about how European organizations are abandoning Windows in favor of Linux on the desktop, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that sooner or later vendors will have enough financial incentive to tell Microsoft where to stick it and start putting more resources into developing for Linux (and OS X). Hardware vendors such as IBM and Dell are already doing this, so it's only a matter of time before the software houses follow suit.

 

[N_Jay]

Actually I have less experience with 95/98/ME than I do with 2k and XP. I spent most of those years working with unix and routers, thank God.



Just because all the major vendors are doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do. Let's revisit VHS versus Beta: Beta was a far superior technology but VHS won, simply because it had vendor support. As I stated previously, Microsoft has been known to strongarm vendors into developing for their OS exclusively, or at the very least providing a better product under Windows than the versions available for other operating systems.

As I read more and more news blurbs about how European organizations are abandoning Windows in favor of Linux on the desktop, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that sooner or later vendors will have enough financial incentive to tell Microsoft where to stick it and start putting more resources into developing for Linux (and OS X). Hardware vendors such as IBM and Dell are already doing this, so it's only a matter of time before the software houses follow suit.

You are putting too much emotion into your OS selection.

I have been hearing the same story about Linux on the desktop since 1995. It is not going to happen.

The MDT space started with dedicated purpose terminals and embedded OS systems. It has evolved past that point. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just suggesting you expand your understanding of these systems.